[ SECRET POST #1920 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1920 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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26. http://i42.tinypic.com/21m7v28.png
[linked for... sort of scribbly porny, not really]








Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #274.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Well...let me try to answer all your questions one by one...

a) They like serving because it's in their nature to take care of people. Like it's in goblins' nature to deal with money and trade, and in centaurs' nature to study the heavens. They're magical creatures, it's fine for them to have weirdly specific inclinations.

b) Dobby does like serving, he just doesn't like being a slave for the Malfoys without pay or any other recognition of his worth. He loves his job at Hogwarts and turned down weekends off because he'd rather be cleaning and cooking and such. He just wants to be treated well and to have his independence.

c) There are no laws against mistreating them because the wizarding community is still choked up with conservative aristocratic bigots who think they're better than all other magical creatures and don't care about their plight. JKR only spent five books expounding fairly explicitly on this fact.

d) SPEW isn't meant to be taken seriously because it was a 14 year old girl's attempt to enact grand social change. Of course it's gonna look ridiculous and silly and uninformed and ineffective, just like most high school and college activists do. That doesn't mean it's wrong -- Harry gains some understanding of that in HBP when he and Dumbledore were discussing why Hepzibah Smith's house elf got unfairly blamed for her death. And JKR said that when Hermione grew up she became an influential Ministry official and a big proponent of welfare for magical creatures, you know, when she was an adult and figured out how to properly lobby for civil rights.

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

On b, I think the OP's point was why is Dobby the only house elf we ever see who has that specific hangup about pay.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

I always thought it was because most house elves (Winky or the Hogwarts kitchen elves) had internalized the notion that it was disgraceful and unseemly to be free or take money for services, and Dobby was among the vast minority. I thought that was pretty damn cool and realistic (especially when you compare it to stuff like internalized misogyny or racism) the way it was written (god almighty I loved Goblet of Fire. So very very much.)

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

But... how? How did Dobby come to not internalize that notion, seeing as we never see another house elf with his point of view? I would maybe get it if he was raised in a more liberal household, but the Malfoys are supposed to be super abusive, so where would he have even heard that there was a world out there that would accept a free house elf?
(I love Goblet of Fire too, though)

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

Guess some house elves, like some people, are just smarter and stronger-willed than others and can see through bullshit and realize the dangers and unfairness of some traditions. Maybe because the Malfoys treated him so very badly, probably a lot worse than in most households (worse than Crouch treated Winky, as far as we know, and certainly a lot worse than how the Hogwarts elves were treated), so maybe he couldn't convince himself his life was just dandy?

I do wish we'd gotten more backstory on Dobby though -- he'd have been such a great source of infodumping based on his experiences in the Malfoy household. Wasted opportunity IMO...

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I always expected Dobby to talk about his experience some more, especially when Kreacher was introduced. Ah, well. That's what fanfic is for, I guess.

[marshwiggledyke.livejournal.com]

It might be because Dobby came from THE MALFOYS.

Who are utterly shitty people, and care about little else during Dobby's stay with them beyond money, blood purity, and abusing Dobby.

Dobby might have internalized it in different ways- such as self-harm, but he might have gotten the idea that the luxurious mansion around him had to have come from SOMEWHERE, and that anywhere was better than where he was. Other house elves like Kreachur respond to kindness from his owners, which makes me think Kreachur had a better time of it than Dobby.

I also think it's a matter of the author- despite living at the Dursleys for as long as he can remember, Harry seems remarkably well-balanced as a person and internalized very little of the worthlessness the Dursleys have been trying to impress on him since he came to their house. He recognizes that although the wizarding world is a great unknown, it'd be better than being with the Dursleys- he fears expulsion most in the first few books, and when he thinks he's been expelled in POA for using wandless magic, he leaves with his trunk and owl immediately.

[(Anonymous)]

All house-elves self-harm when they disobey an order. I don't think there's any psychological internalizing.

[hunterwithcause.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, how many other house elves do we really get to know other than Dobby? Winky, who obviously wanted to stay with Barty Crouch, and Kreacher, who wasn't happy at all serving Sirius but bound to him.

It's possible there were other house elves who wouldn't mind getting paid, but we a) just don't see them, or b) they don't dare speak up. Given the way the other Hogwarts house elves treat Dobby, any other elf with the same ideas might be too afraid to speak up. Besides, Dobby was a free elf when he negotiated the terms with Dumbledore. Any other elf might have to fear getting kicked out if they ever told their master that they wanted to get paid for a sercive they had always performed for free until now (and countless other elves were still eager to do for free).

In my headcanon, meanwhile, Kreacher and Harry always negotiate the hell out of the terms on which Kreacher works for Harry. Kreacher just wants to do his job like he's always done because he's a proper elf, but Harry wants pay him and give him off days in honor of Dobby (and because he doesn't want to risk Hermione's wrath). So once a year the two of them sit down and Kreacher tries his best to get as big a workload as possible while having to accept as less money and free time as he can get away with. (He's still very proper and respectful while telling his master to shove it. Kreacher is a very proper elf.) Harry, meanwhile, tries to negotiate the exact opposite while the rest of the family/friends just watches on in bemusement. (They had to exclude Hermione from the negotiation table after the first few years; she kept making Kreacher cry with the huge demands of pay and off days. Little did she and Harry know that Kreacher learned early on that tears were the best way to stop Ms Hermione from saying ridiculous things.)



Edit: LOL, my FMA is showing. I meant Winky, of course. Not Winry.

[(Anonymous)]

I like your headcanon regarding Kreacher. I'm totally going to incorporate it into my own headcanon now. :D

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

Well yeah, all that is totally possible, but that's the thing- it's pure speculation. There's no evidence in the text of a whole group of house elves all eagerly waiting to be paid or freed: in fact, OotP seems to go out of its way to establish that the only house elf that the trio have ever encountered who is interested in those things is Dobby.

[hunterwithcause.livejournal.com]

Well, why would the text go into things like this? It's not like Harry had any interest in these things, and most of the books are closely tied to his POV. We might have found out a bit more had Hermione been the protagonist, but as it is the lack of evidence one way or other makes sense as quite frankly, Harry didn't really care.

in fact, OotP seems to go out of its way to establish that the only house elf that the trio have ever encountered who is interested in those things is Dobby.

This is what I hoped to cover when I said other elves might be afraid to speak out because of the way Dobby gets treated by the other elves. Obviously, wanting to be free/wear clothes is wrong and makes one a freak, so any other elf that might want to be free is too afraid to admit that he's interested in these kind of things as well. Like, no elf in their right mind would tidy up Gryffindor Tower because of the hats lying around, only a freak like Dobby go there. Plus, the question is if any of the Hogwarts elves would even want to get freed; Dobby was mistreated at the Malfoy's, but even without getting paid working at Hogwarts seems to be a much better gig than the Malfoy's.

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

Well, why would the text go into things like this? It's not like Harry had any interest in these things
Because... why have a whole subplot that the protagonist isn't interested in? (For the record, I think he did have interest- at least interest in Dobby personally, rather than the entire moral quandry)

And if there's so much societal pressure keeping other elves from speaking up, what magical accident gave Dobby the courage to? I'd think if anything, Dobby being around and obviously happy would encourage other elves with such theoretical desires, because it's one person who would understand and that they could talk to.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with you. Dobby is really in the vast, VAST minority here, like uhm, I don't know, there's no real-world equivalent that makes sense to compare it to, but to cut to the chase, here:

-Harry's POV clouds every book in almost every chapter (with very few exceptions) so we're stuck with seeing through his eyes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and in fact, it served the series very well, but at the end of the day it does leave us asking questions, and something important to remember is that Harry actually hasn't met many house elves. He's met Dobby, and Winky, and Kreacher...but that's all he's met on a very personal level. I do think he met another one via a vision in the Pensieve, am I right? But even then, one must remember that Harry's met very few house elves.

-Someone else already said it, but I think it's obvious that a house elf would be afraid to speak up. It's a culture thing ingrained into their minds and their very BEING, to be servants, to be happy with X, not with Y or Z, and to do A B and C without fail. It's disturbing and it's scary, and people like Ron don't understand, while people like Hermione and Harry are Properly Horrified because things like slavery are wrong and only nasty evil people would keep a slave, and that's what Hermione and Harry have learned their whole lives-- but Ron's seen it, never thought much of it, etc and so on.

-I assume people look at house elves sort of like a pet, but not a beloved pet, more like a tool. Imagine if your dog cooked dinner and cleaned for you! But honestly, house elves are of equal intelligence with humans, so... -_-

-Let's not forget also that ALL beings who are "not human" are looked down on. This includes the centaurs, for one, and all dark creatures, including werewolves, and this includes upstanding citizens who happen to BE werewolves...like Remus. Who never did anything wrong and yet still suffers.

In the end being a house elf at least earns them a roof over their head, I guess, and just like with servants and/or slaves in recent and ancient times, some people are probably pretty decent or even good to their house elf, feedin' them well and stuff like that, but the people Harry knows who own house elves are either assholes or partial douchebags, and yes, I include Sirius in the latter category. I love him but he's not a nice person, not really, and Dumbledore is right in that he views house elves as "less than human" which is really sad considering Remus is a friend of his and that if Sirius, who is on the Good Guys' Side, believes something like that re: house elves, well, you can assume most of the wizarding world does, too.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

The same reason Remus is the only good werewolf we ever meet, I suppose. :/

[kyogres.livejournal.com]

Just butting in to say that I love your icon. Haar and Jill. <3

Do you have a link to the full version of the picture?

[hooves.livejournal.com]

Actually, I do! I commissioned it from the lovely kiu22 and the almost-full-sized banner is on my journal layout. There's also a cute picture by her of Haar and Jill on my profile page aaaaaaand also a cute one on my journal as my "friends only" banner. :D

[kyogres.livejournal.com]

The full art is so pretty!

Hahaha, I love you friends only banner. XD

I'm always excited to find other Fire Emblem fans. I got into the series kind of late (after Shadow Dragon was released), and haven't managed to find the fandom aside from following the FE tag on Tumblr.

[captain-loki.livejournal.com]

a)They're magical creatures, it's fine for them to have weirdly specific inclinations.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are magical creatures. They are group that is subjugated by arrogant men who brainwash them into believing that the only thing that they are worthy of is cleaning and serving. After generations of this type of thinking it is naturally ingrained into them, that is why they find the very idea of being paid or receiving fair benefits as insulting. If they were given the opportunity to rise above their station and to actually be free thinking individuals they would most likely never want to go back to cleaning and serving wizard kind.

c) There are no laws against mistreating them because the wizarding community is still choked up with conservative aristocratic bigots who think they're better than all other magical creatures and don't care about their plight. JKR only spent five books expounding fairly explicitly on this fact.

This. I have to wonder if the OP has read the same books...the house elves (and other subjugated magical creatures) are there to draw parallels to the muggles and muggle borns. They too are seen as second class by the magical world, and not just the Death Eaters and pureblood supporters. Time and again we see Arthur Weasley (a "muggle lover") treating muggles as though they are cute, adorable and quaint individuals, the same way these "lesser" creatures are treated.

There are numerous times throughout the books that the subject of House Elf rights are looked upon seriously, and yes SPEW was a bit ridiculous but it was sort of supposed to be, precisely to point out how little other wizards actual care about these issues which just continues to strengthen the point JKR was trying to make.

[hooves.livejournal.com]

precisely to point out how little other wizards actual care

THIS! This so much. It's true that Hermione tries really hard to get people involved and I honestly, truly felt sorry for her the entire time. There are tons of people who would be on her side, probably Hagrid and Remus Lupin among them, but I'll bet you anything that 99% of the HP Wizarding World are racist asshats...or just racist without even realizing that's what they are.

[duae.livejournal.com]

For debate's sake, what if the House Elves see it as Wizards have been brainwashed by greed and false-idol worship to put value in money and the only true way to be a good person and receive an eternal reward is to work without pay? That they pity the wizards who spend their whole lives caught up in this eternal struggle for more money and more things and keeping other people from taking your things and your money?

From a House Elf perspective, money could very much be like drugs. It's a gateway into a lifestyle they don't approve of. Dobby could very much be that weird kid hanging out behind the school smoking pot.

Part of respecting other cultures is to RESPECT other cultures and not demand they conform to your 'proper' beliefs.

[captain-loki.livejournal.com]

I think you broke my brain with the stupidity of this argument.

For debate's sake, what if the House Elves see it as Wizards have been brainwashed by greed and false-idol worship to put value in money and the only true way to be a good person and receive an eternal reward is to work without pay?That they pity the wizards who spend their whole lives caught up in this eternal struggle for more money and more things and keeping other people from taking your things and your money?

This part of it could in fact be true, and in part, probably is.

Part of respecting other cultures is to RESPECT other cultures and not demand they conform to your 'proper' beliefs.

I don't even...like literally...what the actual fuck. Yes, you are correct, there are many instances where demanding an entire group of people conform to your belief system is wrong. However, it also wrong to deny someone their basic civil liberties, to subjugate an entire race of beings and treat them like vermin, to tell them they are second class citizens and next to worthless and not even give them the opportunity to choose for themselves what they want. And you may argue that Dobby is an example of that free will, however, House Elves have been subjected to slavery for so long they lack the ability to rise above that slavery and demand what they are owed. They can never be anything more than they are because they are uneducated and brainwashed into believing this is what they want.

Basically what you are saying is that it's totally cool to have slaves because that is part of that society's culture and we should respect that. Again, it's one thing to respect a group of people's desire to work without pay, its another thing to respect a society's mistreatment of creatures that could be truly sapient but are merely sentient because of that mistreatment.

[duae.livejournal.com]

For the second part, no, we shouldn't have slaves. But I was thinking of Hermione's attempts to force House Elves to take clothing in order to free them against their will. There's a huge difference between offering someone the opportunity to be free, and forcing your beliefs on them that they'll only be happy if they're like you.

I was also thinking of recent debate how when Muslim women in the US chose to dress modestly sometimes they get mocked and ridiculed because they shouldn’t choose to follow such anti-feminist moral codes. And they’re pressured to conform and bare skin the same as ‘free’ Christian women do. Freedom is being free to choose, not a differently decorated cage. Tell them that YOU know better and YOU know they’ll be happier in a bikini top and hot pants and if they’re not happy it’s just because of cultural brainwashing is just as arrogant and controlling.

[captain-loki.livejournal.com]

Freedom is being free to choose, not a differently decorated cage.

And this is very true. However, the parallels you have drawn between the way someone chooses to dress and an entire group of people's subjugation is inherently flawed, though I understand the position you are trying to take. It is one thing to say that 'the way I dress is what I believe is morally correct', and it would indeed be wrong for someone to say 'no, happiness is a bikini top and hot pants.'

However, it has less to do with what House Elves is believed to be morally righteous and the actions and the morality of Wizards. It would be unheard of for a House Elf to ask for wages (as is obvious by Dobby) which would make it next to impossible for one to seek what we might deem as fair employment. But fair wages and benefits isn't even the most reprehensible aspect of the House Elves slavery.

Let's go back to your example. It is one thing to allow women to choose for themselves what they feel is appropriate dress, it is another to allow a group of women to continue to live under the tyranny of men, as the House Elves do. They have been basically bred to believe that not only is it their only goal and desire in life to serve men, but that if they do not do it correctly they have to hurt themselves because they failed. Many get punished by their masters, which is terrible enough, but the fact that they have been taught that they have to inflict self-harm and not only that they have to but that they *should want to* because of something as ridiculous as letting a dinner burn, is disgusting. It's not even comparable, in my opinion, to your example of dress codes.

It is one thing to say that House Elves love their pillow cases and no wages, it is another to say Wizards are in the okay because they love it, it is merely perpetuating the belief it is okay to treat them horrifically because they have been taught by Wizards that it is their desires. Do you not see the inherent flaw in this? It's as though an entire race of beings have all developed a genetic memory of the stockholm syndrome.

So yes, we should let people choose for themselves what they believe to is morally righteous for them, however, that can't happen if the group in question is too uneducated to understand that what it is being done to them is *wrong*.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

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