[ SECRET POST #1930 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1930 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 110 secrets from Secret Submission Post #276.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fenm.livejournal.com]

First off, there are plenty of traits she possesses that are annoying regardless of gender (for example, her smugness).

But, here's the thing: If River were male, Moffat more than likely wouldn't have done things like had his whole life revolve around an obsession with the Doctor; he probably wouldn't have pulled the "he's sort of a Time Lord because he was conceived on the TARDIS" because the only reason he did that was to make River a suitable pairing for the Doctor, and a host of other things. A LOT of things Moffat has done with River are with an eye toward making her "special" enough for the Doctor (at least RTD felt that an ordinary woman was perfectly fine for him), and since I doubt Moffat would make the Doctor gay, none of that stuff would happen with a male character. So, even aside from genitalia, if River had been male he'd be such a different a character, a comparison would be nigh impossible.

[(Anonymous)]

just wondering, do you also dislike Jack? Because, let's face it, that dude wrote the book on smugness so if 'smugness' is a factor that makes you dislike a character, you must hate Jack.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

You know there are different kinds of smugness, right? Being smug by, say, thinking you're awesome is probably what you mean, right? Heck, Donna could be kind of smug that way, too, for example (supertemp!) and I love her. I can think of other female characters from other fandoms who are, as well, and whom I love (Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender, for example). No, what I can't stand is River's, "I'm going to mention that I know more about you than you do, but then get all coy and yell, 'Spoilers!"' type of smugness.

Oh, and, really, I don't mind River when she's just treated as another companion, like in "Time an Angels"/"Flesh and Stone". If she was some adventurer that the Doctor&Co occasionally ran into and had adventures with, that'd be fine with me (oh, hey just like the situation with Jack!). But when they get into the whole, she's this super-special amazing person with a super-secret-special relationship with the Doctor, and the plot of half a freaking season revolves around her, that's what I get annoyed about.

[dragonsofeden.livejournal.com]

This. I yo-yo between enjoying River's story and head-desking at the sheer amount of STUFF that goes into it. It's not enough that she is from the Doctor's personal future; she's also part Time Lord. It's not enough that she's Amy and Rory's child from the future; she's also the reason they got together in the first place. (Which felt incredibly retconned, by the way.) Jack's story can be summed up in three bullet points 1) he's another time traveller 2) he's from a culture where omnisexuality is the norm 3) owing to a plot point, he is now effectively immortal.

[othellia.livejournal.com]

(Which felt incredibly retconned, by the way.)

Yeah, it really was. And to the people who make defenses for Moffat (and Moffat himself) who say "Well they didn't know if they were going to get Alex Kingston back and couldn't include Mels beforehand because of that", that's total rubbish. We knew a heck of a lot more about Rose's BFF Shireen and Jackie's boyfriend (who keeps fruit in his pajamas) than we did of Mels before her super retconned four-minute introduction. And guess what? No physical actor had to be cast for them to be name-dropped.

Lazy writing. Bottom line.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not trying to speak for fenm, but did you even read their full comment? Like, at all? The smugness was the first of a whole list of things that make River annoying that also have nothing to do with gender. I personally like Jack (most of the time) and can't stand River precisely because of the plot-derailing, special snowflake syndrome that goes into River's writing, which seems to be a lot of what fenm and most of the other commentors who don't like River are getting at.

[spicandspan89.livejournal.com]

Very good points. I can see how some people think RTD put Rose on a pedestal - not that I agree with them - but Moffat has unarguably done the same thing with River. Why does she need to be the BEST EVAR to be ~worthy of the Doctor? Sigh.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I didn't like Doctor/Rose, either, at least her being an ordinary Human was enough.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, but that's not the point Anon above was making. It's not "if Moffat had introduced a male character instead of female one". It's talking about the same character, but male. There is no "Moffat wouldn't do that with a male character!" argument. They were just saying about the same character, but male.

And if River was exactly the same but male, I do agree that fans would probably be eating it up.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

It's talking about the same character, but male.

And I'm saying a male character would not BE the same, for the reasons stated. River, from the beginning, was hinted at having a special, probably romantic/sexual relationship with the Doctor. Moffat would not write a male character to have that same sort of relationship. And thus a lot of things Moffat has written to make the relationship be what he wants it to be would not happen. And thus the character would be very different.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know about "fans" in general (and could that be more nebulous and presumptive?), but I personally would dislike a male character who waltzes on screen and is instantly declared to be super!important and super!special in every way, who breaks established canon (see, for example, the parking break thing), who bends the Doctor massively out of character (even One was established as disapproving of guns way back around that OK Corral serial with Dodo and Stephen) and so on just as much as I dislike River.

[haro.livejournal.com]

This.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes! Exactly! Everything about this.

The character of River, whether male or female or other, personally bugs the crap out of me because the writing for that character comes off as incredibly sloppy and bizarre. She knows more about the TARDIS than the Doctor does! She can pilot it better! She uses a gun! Her clothes are super-gorgeous! *She's* super-gorgeous! She has a ~*mysterious tragic destiny*~ AND a ~*mysterious tragic past*~! She's got James Bond gadgets! She can shoot like Roland Deschain! She has goofy catchphrases! Everybody in the universe is afraid of her, but everyone wants her due to special stuff! She's got a super-mega-badass reputation! Due to random space science, she's also kind of a Time Lord but kind of not, so the Doctor isn't the last one, not really!

It would bug me if a male character in the same series had the same thing going on (in fact, I might roll my eyes even harder if it were a dude).

...although, if I'm totally honest, if River were the star of a totally standalone series, completely uninvolved with Doctor Who, I would probably have loved her. As it is, she just doesn't seem like she *belongs* in Doctor Who, like her character just doesn't fit the atmosphere somehow, and I can't really put my finger on why. She seems like she should be in some kind of futuristic Indiana Jones series instead!

[(Anonymous)]

I completely agree on her not fitting in with the series (though I don't think I'd like her much on her own, either, unless they fleshed her out a bit and made her personality less reliant on the men in her life). For me, I think it's that she's too violent and 90's-style "gritty", which doesn't fit into the overall theme of Doctor Who. The Doctor has always been very much about finding clever, non-violent solutions, respecting the rights and dignities of all sentient beings, and acting with responsibility and thoughtfulness regardless of the circumstances. River, on the other hand, is uber gung-ho about violence and thinks about others and their rights with roughly the same depth as a tea saucer.

[(Anonymous)]

All true!

I like a bit of stupid action sometimes, and I can kind of see River (in her hypothetical totally-standalone series) starring in a gleefully mindless and silly adventure series, spouting goofy one-liners and battling transparently evil villains warring over a grand treasure or something. If she were in that kind of a series from the start, I would probably be a huge fan. (I would also love if she teamed up with Cynthia Rothrock to beat up space gangsters or something.)

(And oh, jeez, please don't let the new companion be her daughter, as someone on here a week or two ago theorized. D: dnw)

[fenm.livejournal.com]

(And oh, jeez, please don't let the new companion be her daughter, as someone on here a week or two ago theorized. D: dnw)

OH GOD THIS.

[intrigueing.livejournal.com]

...although, if I'm totally honest, if River were the star of a totally standalone series, completely uninvolved with Doctor Who, I would probably have loved her.

*blinks*

You have just reconciled every conflicting feeling I have ever had about my previously incomprehensible and conflicted simultaneous love and dislike of River. THANK YOU.

[(Anonymous)]

You're quite welcome!