fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1930 ]

[ SECRET POST #1930 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1930 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 110 secrets from Secret Submission Post #276.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I think a lot of people who hate on River would love the character if she were male. Damn the Patriarchy!

Why do you think this? Not trolling, legitimately curious. (The aspects of River's story that bug me have absolutely nothing to do with her genitalia, and everything to do with my distaste for out-of-order romance.)

Different anon but I'd say: because Jack Harkness.

Thinking mostly about the people who hated River from the start, back when she was basically the female version of Jack.

Interesting comparison...not quite sure I see it, though (aside from the sexual flirting).

Older than the average nu-Who companion (Rose/Martha/Donna), more knowledgeable if not to the same level as the Doctor, from a different time period, plus, as you said, the flirting. Possibly some 'S(t)uish' qualities added as we grew to know them better.

Reasonable - though the big difference I would highlight is that owing to her out-of-order narrative, River's flirting comes off as overly familiar and/or entitled. It's appropriate for her overall story arc, but as the viewer is experiencing events along with the Doctor, the experience is jarring. I understand the Doctor is not human, but it's difficult for me to relate to a character who flirts by implying that "lol spoilers - we totally get it on in the future!"

Similarly, she also demonstrates knowledge which feels incredibly out of place when we first meet her. We've seen past companions pilot the TARDIS - but what on earth was that bit about the parking brake? Other Time Lords have ships which make the exact same 'wheezing' sound. It felt like that was invented to make River 'interesting', when it really wasn't necessary. A companion doesn't have to have all the same skills as the Doctor (plus ten) in order to be an interesting and valid character. They do, however, have to avoid alienating the viewer before we have the chance to get attached.

I love you icon. It makes me giggle madly.

So Jack's purpose in life is to end up with the Doctor? Because that's the only part I find annoying about River - it's basically predetermined she's with him. Doesn't seem like much choice involved for her.

Not really. She would annoy me no matter the gender. Whenever I could have started to like her, she did something utterly annoying again. And then there is the fact that the romance felt absolutely forced. No natural development and absolutely unbelievable. In fact, River is one of the very few things that I can't stand about Moffat's run. And no, I don't ship Doctor/Rose either. So no gender and no Rose-issues. I just can't stand her and the forced/unbelievable romance aspect.

sadly i agree.

First off, there are plenty of traits she possesses that are annoying regardless of gender (for example, her smugness).

But, here's the thing: If River were male, Moffat more than likely wouldn't have done things like had his whole life revolve around an obsession with the Doctor; he probably wouldn't have pulled the "he's sort of a Time Lord because he was conceived on the TARDIS" because the only reason he did that was to make River a suitable pairing for the Doctor, and a host of other things. A LOT of things Moffat has done with River are with an eye toward making her "special" enough for the Doctor (at least RTD felt that an ordinary woman was perfectly fine for him), and since I doubt Moffat would make the Doctor gay, none of that stuff would happen with a male character. So, even aside from genitalia, if River had been male he'd be such a different a character, a comparison would be nigh impossible.

Edited 2012-04-15 21:40 (UTC)

just wondering, do you also dislike Jack? Because, let's face it, that dude wrote the book on smugness so if 'smugness' is a factor that makes you dislike a character, you must hate Jack.

You know there are different kinds of smugness, right? Being smug by, say, thinking you're awesome is probably what you mean, right? Heck, Donna could be kind of smug that way, too, for example (supertemp!) and I love her. I can think of other female characters from other fandoms who are, as well, and whom I love (Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender, for example). No, what I can't stand is River's, "I'm going to mention that I know more about you than you do, but then get all coy and yell, 'Spoilers!"' type of smugness.

Oh, and, really, I don't mind River when she's just treated as another companion, like in "Time an Angels"/"Flesh and Stone". If she was some adventurer that the Doctor&Co occasionally ran into and had adventures with, that'd be fine with me (oh, hey just like the situation with Jack!). But when they get into the whole, she's this super-special amazing person with a super-secret-special relationship with the Doctor, and the plot of half a freaking season revolves around her, that's what I get annoyed about.

Edited 2012-04-15 22:53 (UTC)

This. I yo-yo between enjoying River's story and head-desking at the sheer amount of STUFF that goes into it. It's not enough that she is from the Doctor's personal future; she's also part Time Lord. It's not enough that she's Amy and Rory's child from the future; she's also the reason they got together in the first place. (Which felt incredibly retconned, by the way.) Jack's story can be summed up in three bullet points 1) he's another time traveller 2) he's from a culture where omnisexuality is the norm 3) owing to a plot point, he is now effectively immortal.

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othellia.livejournal.com - 2012-04-16 00:18 (UTC) - Expand

I'm not trying to speak for fenm, but did you even read their full comment? Like, at all? The smugness was the first of a whole list of things that make River annoying that also have nothing to do with gender. I personally like Jack (most of the time) and can't stand River precisely because of the plot-derailing, special snowflake syndrome that goes into River's writing, which seems to be a lot of what fenm and most of the other commentors who don't like River are getting at.

Very good points. I can see how some people think RTD put Rose on a pedestal - not that I agree with them - but Moffat has unarguably done the same thing with River. Why does she need to be the BEST EVAR to be ~worthy of the Doctor? Sigh.

Exactly! I didn't like Doctor/Rose, either, at least her being an ordinary Human was enough.

Yes, but that's not the point Anon above was making. It's not "if Moffat had introduced a male character instead of female one". It's talking about the same character, but male. There is no "Moffat wouldn't do that with a male character!" argument. They were just saying about the same character, but male.

And if River was exactly the same but male, I do agree that fans would probably be eating it up.

It's talking about the same character, but male.

And I'm saying a male character would not BE the same, for the reasons stated. River, from the beginning, was hinted at having a special, probably romantic/sexual relationship with the Doctor. Moffat would not write a male character to have that same sort of relationship. And thus a lot of things Moffat has written to make the relationship be what he wants it to be would not happen. And thus the character would be very different.

I don't know about "fans" in general (and could that be more nebulous and presumptive?), but I personally would dislike a male character who waltzes on screen and is instantly declared to be super!important and super!special in every way, who breaks established canon (see, for example, the parking break thing), who bends the Doctor massively out of character (even One was established as disapproving of guns way back around that OK Corral serial with Dodo and Stephen) and so on just as much as I dislike River.

This.

Yes! Exactly! Everything about this.

The character of River, whether male or female or other, personally bugs the crap out of me because the writing for that character comes off as incredibly sloppy and bizarre. She knows more about the TARDIS than the Doctor does! She can pilot it better! She uses a gun! Her clothes are super-gorgeous! *She's* super-gorgeous! She has a ~*mysterious tragic destiny*~ AND a ~*mysterious tragic past*~! She's got James Bond gadgets! She can shoot like Roland Deschain! She has goofy catchphrases! Everybody in the universe is afraid of her, but everyone wants her due to special stuff! She's got a super-mega-badass reputation! Due to random space science, she's also kind of a Time Lord but kind of not, so the Doctor isn't the last one, not really!

It would bug me if a male character in the same series had the same thing going on (in fact, I might roll my eyes even harder if it were a dude).

...although, if I'm totally honest, if River were the star of a totally standalone series, completely uninvolved with Doctor Who, I would probably have loved her. As it is, she just doesn't seem like she *belongs* in Doctor Who, like her character just doesn't fit the atmosphere somehow, and I can't really put my finger on why. She seems like she should be in some kind of futuristic Indiana Jones series instead!

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-04-16 03:31 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-04-16 05:28 (UTC) - Expand

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fenm.livejournal.com - 2012-04-16 05:32 (UTC) - Expand

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intrigueing.livejournal.com - 2012-04-16 04:09 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-04-16 05:14 (UTC) - Expand

*inserts obligatory 'They already do. See: Captain Jack* comment

As someone who generally FAVORS female characters, how about no. And the Jack comparisons are completely inaccurate, and I'm tired of seeing them (although fyi Jack is not one of my favorites). Smug and flirty? That's the only thing I really see.

I dislike the Jack comparisons, too, and agree that they're inaccurate, but I think people also make them because of the fact that he's also a time traveler and he has some epic skills of his own. Even if you do compare them though, there are matters of degree that I'd argue make River vastly more obnoxious than Jack (even if you're someone who doesn't much care for Jack). Jack has some combat abilities and understands time travel and future technology; River KNOWS ALL and can DESTROY ALL THE THINGS while still getting the Doctor's approval. Jack is flirty toward the Doctor and everyone else; River is the Doctor's ONE TRUE LOVE AND ONLY EQUAL!!!eleventybillion!!...And so on.

Even if you do actively compare them (and, again, I do agree that it's generally not a great comparison), it's still obvious why someone might like Jack but dislike, or even hate, River.

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