fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1967 ]

[ SECRET POST #1967 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1967 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #281.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Aaand suddenly that ONTD post (about how France is so racist because Think Like A Man hasn't a distributor here yet) from last night is that much more depressing to me.

I always got the impression that in general the French aren't any more or less open-minded about race or immigration than Americans are but I could be wrong

Ooh, way less open about race. But they make up for it with good food.

That made me laugh, thank you. XD

NAYRT

Well, the previous president (who got ousted two weeks ago) certainly isn't. He does have a knack for making people hate each other (and him, but that's another story).

France is... special. For example school girls who happen to be Muslims can't wear the hijab in school, stuff like that.

If I recall you can't even wear a cross necklace to school or something unobtrusive like that? NO RELIGION RELATED THINGS AT ALL.

Yuuuup. The crazy really hit the fan back in the 90s. The sad part? The government thought (and still thinks) that they're doing a favor to everyone with this "no religion" BS. I'm an atheist, but I hate this kind of attitude. Having a religion isn't a crime.
(And then for example Finland followed this example to an extent: students are allowed to wear what they want, but singing Christmas songs in schools during Christmas isn't allowed anymore, because not everyone is a Christian. Monkey see, monkey do.)

I can understand really, hugely blatant religious messages being prohibited (like t-shirts with certain text), but small things like hijab or a crucifix necklace? It's just really strange to me.

And then for example Finland followed this example to an extent: students are allowed to wear what they want, but singing Christmas songs in schools during Christmas isn't allowed anymore, because not everyone is a Christian. Monkey see, monkey do.

That might be the case in some schools, for example in Helsinki where there are more immigrants, but it's definitely not a norm. There is no law to ban Christmas carols or other Christian tradition from schools.

Thanks for the info!

Oh please. I'm Finnish and just a few years back I got into trouble at school for not wanting to attend christmas church. I also live in Helsinki and not some backwards town.

There's a shift toward not forcing people who are not christian to participate in christmas related thing but that's just a good thing IMO. Christmas songs aren't going to be banned anytime soon.

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ooh-mrdarcy.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 01:20 (UTC) - Expand

I think they can wear it in private schools but I'm not sure. Public schools don't allow it, because they are lay schools and the rules apply to everyone, not just Muslims. IF you can hide it under your clothes, you can wear a necklace with a small cross or a small Hamsa, or whatever else. IF you can hide it. No religious things and no political things in school (as in: wearing a shirt that promotes a political party? No sir).

Ooh, I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying. (I haven't been to France in quite a while and I never heard about this.)

You're welcome!

A tiny part of me agrees with this in theory, since two of the biggest no no topics of discussion tend to be religion and politics, so I can see why they'd want to try and keep that out of a place of learning in order to lessen potential animosity, but at the same time, I couldn't imagine wanting to tell someone they had to disregard their religion's way of dress in order to go to school, especially since in the case of Muslims, the hair covering is a very serious thing to them, that they can't show their hair to any man of "potential marriagability" if I'm remembering what my Muslim friend told me correctly. Ignoring the fact that marriagability is completely not a word. XD

This. My understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - is that wearing the hijab is a question of modesty, not necessarily of religious devotion. Telling people that they can't wear it because it's a visible sign of religion seems like it's going a little far IMO.

That being said, I don't know anything about the repercussions this decision has had on French society. Does anyone have any insight they would like to share?

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icarian-ink.livejournal.com - 2012-05-23 06:27 (UTC) - Expand

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spicandspan89.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 04:14 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-23 12:56 (UTC) - Expand

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spicandspan89.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 04:16 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-24 11:29 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, the problem is that the cross can be worn under the clothes, and the hijab can't.

The rules may be designed to protect everyone equally, but they don't APPLY to everyone equally. And that's an issue.

Well, the Hamsa is not a Christian symbol...

I think the problem is that it can be distressing not to wear it.

It's not the same as just wearing a necklace, which one could wear because they feel like displaying a religious symbol, it's something a Muslim girl feels commanded to wear.

I know I'd feel horribly uncomfortable and naked without my hijab. I'd probably opt for wearing a hat and long-sleeved clothing or anything else to cover up the parts that hijab's supposed to cover, if there's no way to wear a headscarf...

Off topic but I always like reading your comments because OOOOOH MR DARCY + Tom of Finland icon cracks me up for some reason

Edited 2012-05-23 03:27 (UTC)

Ty!

Yeah, your comments are pretty awesome and I really like the opinions you express but your icon kind of cracks me up too. Just looks so serious while his shirt's undone and it's just funny somehow to me.

No idea what it's from, but yeah!

(no subject)

ooh-mrdarcy.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 21:15 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

inkedfeathers.livejournal.com - 2012-05-24 22:30 (UTC) - Expand

From my experience, France and the US have similar levels of conflict regarding race and immigration, but their approaches are different and so the effects are slightly different. I think of it the same way as the difference in the countries' freedom of religion policies, sort of in terms of addition vs subtraction. Both in search of equality, the US tries to be open to including every religion; France tries to eliminate any religion from the public sphere. US forms have grown to include multiple columns of check boxes to indicate a variety of races; in France it's illegal to gather statistics and data based on race. I find the difference fascinating, because the social problems are largely the same.

I saw that one! But that's weird, because I couldn't find any official source on that, so I'm still a bit doubtful... I don't know, these days, you never know what might happen...

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