fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2008 ]

[ SECRET POST #2008 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2008 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 088 secrets from Secret Submission Post #287.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
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Okay, I have to ask, because I am genuinely curious, how does this movie "break gender norms" in any way that hasn't been done a thousand times before? I haven't seen the movie (WANT to, had no time yet), but everything I see about it just says... action movie starring redheaded Eowyn. Or Arya Stark. Or Lucy Pevensie. Or Lyra Belacqua. Or Xena. Or Lara Croft. Or Buffy. Or Princess Fiona. Or what appears to be a good 60% of every female lead in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section at Barnes & Noble.

I don't feel a work of fiction should be allowed to boast that it "breaks gender norms" and "empowers women" unless it does so in a way that is GENUINELY new and rare and defines the character as an individual by doing more than just "I may have tits, but by god I'm going to defy the Law of Vagina and shoot that gun, swing that sword, shoe that horse, ride any man I like, cuss like a sailor, and to hell with having babies or getting married SO THERE." That's done. We get it. The TV shows commercials encouraging women to join the army and the Episcopal church ordains them whether they're married lesbians or ex-hookers or deep-sea divers and they dominate many fields of science and art and WE GET IT, YOU DON'T NEED A PENIS TO MAKE FART JOKES AND USE A HAMMER.

So what makes this different? What makes this special? If it's not doing all that well, maybe that's because the answer is simply "not enough."

Example. You know what I think is a great empowering movie for women, especially children and young girls? The Secret of NIMH. Why? Imagine Mrs. Brisby wasn't a cartoon mouse. The movie is about a woman raising four children as a single mother who challenges obstacles she is told by everyone are insurmountable because she must save her son. She faces different kinds of predators -- some that would do her harm or kill her just because that's how the world is (imagine that instead of an owl and a cat and a tractor, these were just the kinds of bad people who are in the world -- an imposing authority figure, a criminal, a landlord), and some who would use her as a political tool and do harm to her and her children in order to further their own interests. There are a few who would protect her, but some of them are lost, and all of the real challenges she faces, she must ultimately face and overcome alone.

This movie is empowering because it's not about a woman who is strong because she can beat the boys at their own game. It's empowering because it's about a woman who is strong. A woman with no special gifts or talents -- she can't even read more than a few words. A woman who is not physically strong or unusually fast or dexterous. She is just a woman, and her only weapon is her determination.

That is one HELL of an empowering movie because it's about a woman who makes a choice and sees it through. In the every-day lives of most women, that's all there's REALLY CONSISTENTLY going to be. Life gives you an obstacle. You make your choices, and you fight for them, and if the first thing you try doesn't work, you try something else, and something else, you try the back door, you try the pulley and the lever, you persevere. Even though you are afraid. Even though you are alone. Even though you have to decide to leave your children in the care of a neurotic bird. You make yourself PRESENT, you make your voice heard, and you bleed, and you burn, and then you bind your wounds when the battle is over and you go on living.

And that, you see, is a message of empowerment.

I think the mother/daughter relationship is something that is not usually portrayed in animated movies. At least not as a positive relationship that is the focus of the movie.

Edited 2012-07-03 00:14 (UTC)

But did it absolutely need to be addressed? Were people protesting in the streets because there was a lack of mother-daughter films? And why was it answered with a really weak film that had a weak resolution to it? Mother and daughter play in the river together and then everything is okay between them?

I once again call on Finding Nemo for comparison. The dad fish crossed an entire ocean to save his son and realized he was smothering his son despite thinking he was protecting him. Nemo saw his father risk everything to save him and realized that his father wasn't trying to ruin his life but protect him in the only way he knew how. Their relationship was built up and resolved perfectly.

Merida and her mother did not get that kind of build up. If they had, maybe I would have actually enjoyed the film.

I wasn't defending how the movie dealt with it, (I do have several problems with the film and I don't consider it particularly groundbreaking) just that it's not a common theme in animated movies, where the mothers are either dead, evil or wallpaper.

Playing devil's advocate, that's all :)

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-03 01:15 (UTC) - Expand

I thought there was enough about Merida and Elinor's prior relationship in the film, even if it was shown in a less linear fashion than in Finding Nemo. It was lovely how both women realize there is value in the other's way of life. Elinor realizes Merida's skills are useful and her opinion on the big question not irrelevant, Merida realizes that a queenly presence and a diplomatic hand are valuable skills in another kind of wilderness. It was really touching to me that Elinor immediately regretted that spoilery thing she did in response to Merida's spoilery thing when they were screaming at each other. It showed that even if she didn't entirely understand her daughter's interests, she respected that it was something very dear to Merida all the same. Their journey was the same as Nemo and Marlin's, to understand each other, and for Merida in particular to put aside her pride and accept that her mother acted out of love the best way she knew how. Journeys don't have to be geographical to be epic.

(no subject)

gethenian - 2012-07-03 05:58 (UTC) - Expand

I'll have to see it before I can say anything about Brave, but I agree you don't often see positive mother/daughter relationships portrayed in animated films unless it's used as what I feel is simple emotional manipulation, which I think is lazy as hell and it pisses me off.

I loved the complexity of the relationship in Tangled. I thought that was delightfully, refreshingly sophisticated. But that complexity wasn't a positive thing.

...and now I am trying to think of where I've ever seen a positive mother/daughter relationship maintained throughout an animated film.... uhh.... hmmm....

Well there's The Aristocats... ummmmmm..... Quest for Camelot...

...

...well shit. Beyond those, even after skimming through most of Wikipedia's list of animated feature films, there's not a single other movie I can find in which a mother/daughter relationship features prominently in the movie. Oh, there are a good number where there are major characters who have living mothers who love them, but they're not a focus, at all. Like that little girl's mom in Balto. They're established to exist but the story doesn't need them beyond that. The ONLY things I can think of that are a stretch are those orphan movies like All Dogs Go to Heaven and The Rescuers where there's a little girl who wants parents and ultimately finds a mother who loves her... in the last 10 minutes or so of the movie...

Otherwise, it's fathers and sons, fathers and daughters, or mothers and sons.

And now I'm realizing how distinct this trend is and now I'm REALLY fascinated by it. What the hell, how are there only TWO MOVIES beside this in which a positive relationship between a mother and daughter is a major part of the story???

FASCINATING.

It IS fascinating.... and really sad :( You'll notice that there aren't many movies - especially animated - where the female main character has female friends, this one included, either. On the top of my head, I can think of Princess and the Frog and Pocahontas, and only in one of them the friendship was an important part of the plot.

FASCINATING.

I would add to this that father/daughter relationships receive more positive portrayals than mother/son relationships. What's more, close father/daughter relationships often take place while the girl's still in contact with her mother, but close mother/son relationships usually take place in the absence of a father. Also, in any story where a parent's left alone with the kids and goes crazy - invariably the mother.

I wouldn't mind but - in the UK ay least - the overwhelming majority of one-parent households have a mother rather than a father and from the time families had to divy up care-giving duties that has almost always fallen to the mother.

Seriously, where's the gothic horror film about the Victorian man who's forced to abandon a decent career in order to care for his small children, with whom his relationship is distant at best, and has to run a household which he has no idea how to do - all while the children keep demanding to know where mummy is? I was going to end this sentence with him snapping and killing them, but it could also be quite awesome if his wife came back to haunt him when he started mistreating the children.

...sorry, i clearly have to go off and write something. If you'll excuse me.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-04 23:05 (UTC) - Expand

And both types of women can't be portrayed in media as strong because...?

Oh right, women have to choose which one they can relate to or see as THE STRONGEST. Because women don't vary in their attitudes, traits, actions, or what not.

Absolutely none of that is a reflection of anything I said or implied.

Exactly. Thank you.

What I thought broke tradition (and gender-norms in media) was that it focused on the lead and her mother. No romance, just mother-daughter stuff, which is really rare. I found that pretty awesome.

The thing that I liked about Brave, that I think separates it from the other things you mentioned (not that those aren't, y'know, also good) is that... Merida's heroism is not solely linked to her defiance. In fact, her defiance is what gets her in trouble. She has to learn -- as we all do, really -- how to balance responsibility with independence. It's not all "I'm amazing because I shoot arrows and rebel". Her mother is not treated as a totally unfair dictator that Merida is right to reject; her mother has really valid points. They both learn lessons. It's not a story about being more awesome and badass than boys. It's a story about a mother and a daughter and growing up.

I do love Mrs Brisby, though. We can value both kinds of heroines. All kinds. The strong and the soft and the somewhere in-between.

See, that sounds neat, and even as vague as the previews were, I did get sense of TONE from it that I found intriguing. Like I said, I do WANT to see it, and not to mock it -- I want to see it because I think it genuinely looks like an enjoyable film. Whatever it's about. :P

And yeah, we can and SHOULD value all kinds... I guess my point was more that I feel there's too much emphasis being given to the former end of the spectrum than to the latter or to the anywhere-in-between part.

And I definitely think that's true -- and the previews did make it seem more like that. There's good balance, though. Queen Elinor is a pretty amazing character in her own right, and we get to see that.

It's also just a stunningly beautiful movie, and this is coming from someone who will always choose hand-drawn over CGI animation. It's gorgeous, and the musical score is wonderfully evocative.

Although I think I disagree with your assessment of Brave, I am pretty much in love with your Mrs. Frisby ideas. She is totally an amazing role model for women.

Well I know very little about Brave, so there is a certain degree of Ven-going-on-a-tangent in that post. ;)

And thank you. I was never sure why I don't see many people talking about how amazing characters like HER are.

*nods nods*

You've convinced me to start a re-read with my daughter. :)

I love all different kinds of heroines, but what I REALLY appreciate about Brave was not the characterizatin of Merida, but rather the characterization of Elinor. Elinior wasn't villaified even though she conformed to gender norms. The movie really was about two different kinds of women learning to understand and appreciate each other and THAT'S why it was a ground breaking movie to me. It wasn't saying that one kind of woman is better than another. It was just saying that there are different kinds of ways to be women and we should be understanding of each other.

Also I just loved that the mother/daughter relationship was at the center of the movie which isn't something you really see in movies that are not marketed specifically to women.

DA

Yes, this completely. The best thing about the movie, for me, was the fact that both choices – to be traditionally feminine and to be not traditionally feminine – were both seen as empowering and valid. Also, that power could and can be found in traditionally female roles like Elinor's.

Elinor kicked ass without having to actually kick ass, man. That is awesome. (I love the other kind of ass-kicking strong woman too, obvs, but I get concerned by how often I see people thinking of strong women only in terms of physical feats).

It would have been really cool if they'd given even a single frame of a hint of that in the previews. :P

Accurate trailers have never exactly been Pixar's strong suit.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-04 10:53 (UTC) - Expand

It breaks the norms in that Merida learns responsibility for her actions without actually having to change all that much. She literally just learns a bit of humility and strengthens her bond with her mother.

Pretty sure you missed the point here.

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