fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2061 ]

[ SECRET POST #2061 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2061 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Xena: Warrior Princess]

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02.

[tales of symphonia]

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03.

[The Girl From Tomorrow]

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04.

[Spyro the Dragon]

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05.

[Lamento -Beyond the Void-]

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06.

[Aidan Gillen]

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07.

[Skyrim]

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08.

[Touhou Project]

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09.

[Total Recall]

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10.

[Castle]

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11.

[Spyro the Dragon]

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

12. [SPOILERS for the Dark Knight Rises]

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13. [SPOILERS for Digimon 02]

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14. [SPOILERS for the Borgias]

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15. [SPOILERS for Tales of Symphonia]

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16. [SPOILERS for asoiaf/game of thrones]

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17. [SPOILERS for A Dance With Dragons]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

18. [WARNING for eating disorders]

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19. [WARNING for pedophilia, rape, child abuse]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #294.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

That first one? Yes. Hell yes. It's buying into and enabling rape culture, which is pretty disgusting no matter how you slice it.

There are many cultures in which it's likely for a person to be married by 12 or 13. Are these cultures morally bereft and full of pedophiles?

Yes. They are. They're forcing a child into a sexual relationship. I don't care if that's your "culture", it's hurting someone else and that makes it shitty.

Uhhh, you know that a lot of rape victims read non-con right?

Yes, I do. And I don't think it makes one bit of difference. It's still enabling rape culture whether you're a victim of it or not.

na

As someone who is a survivor of rape and reads non-con as a way to cope, I'm kind of offended. Thanks, you dick

Does writing fic about murder encourage killing people too?

When the act of killing is glorified and presented as a source of gratification for the reader? Yes, I think it does.

This! Exactly this.

:/

okaaaay

Don't worry, they're just trolling. These lines are the easiest, classic ways to work up a loli wank, no pun intended.

And what if that person has entered the relationship willingly?

Why is a 12- or 13-year-old still a child? He or she would not have been considered such in our own society 100 years ago. Bah and bar mitvahs are intended to usher individuals into adulthood -- at the age of 13. Spanish culture treats 15 as the age of adulthood. Why would this be so?

We are "ready," from an evolutionary standpoint, when we hit puberty. If you're female and you're menstruating, then you are ready to have children. If you're male and you're having wet dreams, then you are ready to have children. That's basic biological fact. But we are not driven solely by biology, and so we have extended childhood. There are now people in their mid 20s who are still, socially and culturally, children. Think of how you would feel if a friend of yours got married at the tender age of 19. S/he'd legally be an adult, but I'm willing to bet you'd think, "that's way too young."

The fact is that, after puberty, what separates a child from an adult is pure construction. It's completely arbitrary. We've come to believe something different, because "adolescence" has been normalized, but it's a fairly recent concept (e.g. the past 60 years). It's not because we've become more enlightened; it's because society has become more advanced, so we can afford to pamper our offspring for a longer period of time. Observe societies that still live in the wild, in as close to the fashion as we were naturally meant to be, and you'll see something very different.

So I guess Lina Medina was totally an adult because she was able to bear children, even though she was five years old when she got pregnant.

12-13 mentally is still a child. They are not mature enough emotionally to understand a sexual relationship fully to the point of being able to enter one willingly. Sorry.

A 26-year-old is, technically, still mentally a child. Should s/he not be allowed to enter a sexual relationship?

Citation needed.

I apologize; I remembered a bit incorrectly. It's actually 25.

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/tech_assistance/etraining/adolescent_brain/Development/prefrontal_cortex/

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-25 04:09 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-25 04:42 (UTC) - Expand

Immature =/= child. 26-year-olds can be immature, but they are in no way "still children."

dude, a 12 year old is VASTLY mentally/emotionally different from a 20 year old or whatever

The problem is that at least some of that is due to social expectations rather than biological reality.

There are 2-year-olds in the world who are cooking meals for their families.

There are 7-year-olds who are going on fishing expeditions.

There are 12-year-olds who are competently hunting.

There are people who aren't old enough to serve in our military who are successfully leading their tribes.

We, as humans, are capable of amazing things when we are given and expected to handle certain responsibilities. That's part of what makes it difficult to actually draw the line between "child" and "adult."

Let's take, for example, your mention of a 20-year-old. A typical 20-year-old in our society is not, by many measures, an adult. S/he is still living at home; still has no concept of how consequences follow actions; still has no sense of personal responsibility; still feels entitled to that which satiates or entertains; and still cannot handle disappointment or failure. Is this because a 20-year-old is really a child, or is it because we have decided that 20-year-olds should be treated and indulged as children? I spoke with someone not too long ago who believed that people should not be allowed to drive until the age of 21 and should not be allowed to legally drink until the age of 25, for the reason that individuals in their early 20s are, by all counts, still children. Do you agree?

da

you're confusing "can" with "should"

Are you saying that young individuals who can do things that seem too mature for them should not be allowed to, or that older individuals who some people think should not do certain things should be allowed to on the basis that they can?

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-25 04:18 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-26 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

"Why is a 12- or 13-year-old still a child?"

Brain hasn't fully matured yet.

"He or she would not have been considered such in our own society 100 years ago."

Try to remember which terrible things were considered normal or acceptable 100 years ago and no longer are.

"Bah and bar mitvahs are intended to usher individuals into adulthood -- at the age of 13."

A remnant of an older culture.

"Spanish culture treats 15 as the age of adulthood."

Preeetty sure it doesn't.

"We are "ready," from an evolutionary standpoint, when we hit puberty. If you're female and you're menstruating, then you are ready to have children."

No, pregnancies at that age are considered risky for a reason.

" There are now people in their mid 20s who are still, socially and culturally, children. Think of how you would feel if a friend of yours got married at the tender age of 19. S/he'd legally be an adult, but I'm willing to bet you'd think, "that's way too young.""

True, but shouldn't that be even more reason NOT to have children before adult age?

"The fact is that, after puberty, what separates a child from an adult is pure construction. It's completely arbitrary."

And yet no less real.

"The fact is that, after puberty, what separates a child from an adult is pure construction. It's completely arbitrary. We've come to believe something different, because "adolescence" has been normalized, but it's a fairly recent concept (e.g. the past 60 years). It's not because we've become more enlightened; it's because society has become more advanced, so we can afford to pamper our offspring for a longer period of time. Observe societies that still live in the wild, in as close to the fashion as we were naturally meant to be, and you'll see something very different."

Are you seriously suggesting we imitate societies that live in the wild? Seriously?

Now you're going to tell me that we should do like cultures that marry off women at a young age. (Hint: It's to make them stop studying and start having children and taking care of the household. No, this is not a good thing when it's institutionalized and against their will. It's very hard to argue for it even if it's not against their will. And by against their will, I mean that even if it's not a gunpoint, they will be ostracized and shamed if they don't.)

"Brain hasn't fully matured yet."

The brain doesn't fully "mature" until 27. Are you going to tell people that they are wrong for desiring anyone who is below the age of 27?

"Try to remember which terrible things were considered normal or acceptable 100 years ago and no longer are."

The fact that there are some terrible normalized practices at that time does not mean that everything that was normalized at that time was terrible.

"A remnant of an older culture."

A culture in which people died in their 30s, and in which those who we would now consider to be children were not only given but were fully able to handle "adult" responsibilities.

"Preeetty sure it doesn't."

Yes, it does. Turning 15 is a rather important event for that reason.

"No, pregnancies at that age are considered risky for a reason."

I won't deny that they're risky. But they're possible and common, because that is when the body is biologically ready to conceive.

"And yet no less real."

No less real than...what? The idea that a person who is 17 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of voting, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a person who is 20 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of drinking, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a 15-year-old should not drive, yet a 16-year-old is perfectly competent?

It's real in the sense that, like all other constructions, we make it real. It's not forgone.

"Are you seriously suggesting we imitate societies that live in the wild?"

That is not the point. The point is that our concept of what separates childhood from adulthood is a product of the make-up of our society. When you strip away the trappings of civilization, a different picture emerges.

I'm trying to arrive at a baseline for "childhood." That, to me, involves looking at the circumstances under which we evolved and the manner in which we live when thrust back into nature. Primitive society shortens childhood, and it works; advanced society lengthens childhood, and that also works (to some extent. I'd argue that we've now reached a point where we've lengthened it too much). When something of this nature can shrink or expand depending on the context, where do you draw the ultimate line?

"Now you're going to tell me that we should do like cultures that marry off women at a young age."

When it's only women who are marrying at a young age, I think it's pretty clearly a function of how society views females, and not a function of biology.

"The brain doesn't fully "mature" until 27. Are you going to tell people that they are wrong for desiring anyone who is below the age of 27?"

You can't honestly say with a straight face that changes from childhood to ~16-18 years old are on the same scale that ~16-18 years old to 27.

No, and saying that that's what I'm saying is strawmanning.

"The fact that there are some terrible normalized practices at that time does not mean that everything that was normalized at that time was terrible."

...What point were you trying to make by bringing that up, then?

"A culture in which people died in their 30s, and in which those who we would now consider to be children were not only given but were fully able to handle "adult" responsibilities."

Again, being able to handle by sheer necessity isn't the same as "having to handle". And I don't know about "fully".

"Yes, it does. Turning 15 is a rather important event for that reason."

Quinceañeras parties are a thing where I live too, and we definitely do not become adults "please come marry me and take care of me now, grown man" after those any more.

"I won't deny that they're risky. But they're possible and common, because that is when the body is biologically ready to conceive."

"everyone can do it and a lot of people do it" is not a good reason for risky behavior.

"No less real than...what? The idea that a person who is 17 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of voting, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a person who is 20 and 11 months old is not able to handle the responsibility of drinking, and yet a person one month older is? The idea that a 15-year-old should not drive, yet a 16-year-old is perfectly competent?"

The effect those arbitrary milestone have isn't any more real, is what I meant.

Those milestone are decided for the sake of those who are not ready yet, not because by the midnight stroke you change magically. Oh god, you're one of the people who insist that age of consent should be lowered because they "totally know/was myself a very mature person at a young age", aren't you?

There is no "ultimate line", we establish limits to try to protect as many people as we can; and you just said that our society postpones adulthood; like I've said before, just because it's an effect of our society, doesn't make the impact any less real. What you keep trying to skip over is that: a) we're not going to start sending of children to war, making them marry or having serious burdens over their shoulders, and the parts of the world that do that are frowned upon because that is not a good thing

"When it's only women who are marrying at a young age, I think it's pretty clearly a function of how society views females, and not a function of biology."

I never said it wasn't?

I think we will have to agree to disagree; I see what you are proposing as hurtful, you see what I'm defending as nonsense of some sort, neither of us is going to budge on something we feel so strongly about and this argument is going to go nowhere except making us both more upset and even more stubborn about our beliefs.

Let's just end here and each go our own way?

I'm confused. This whole comment sounds like you're arguing with yourself.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-08-25 04:30 (UTC) - Expand

Thank you. I totally agree that the concept of certain ages being appropriate for certain things is only because of how society conditioned us. The age of consent in other countries ranges from 13-16. In some states of the U.S the age of consent is 16. It depends on where you live what is considered morally right or wrong.

The drinking age shows the same inconsistency country to country. U.S is one of the countries that has the highest legal drinking ages (21). Some countries have no drinking age limitation, or some it's as young as 16-18. So where exactly is our moral point of reference for what age is right or wrong?

Once you hit puberty you are ready to reproduce. Not everyone is emotionally responsible at that age, but neither are some people in their 20's. You do not magically become responsible when you turn 18 or 21. For some people it could come much sooner, or much later. Every individual develops differently, so I never understood why we limit ourselves by age once we hit our teens.

I do believe it's wrong for someone to force anyone into sex if that person does not understand or want it. But I also don't believe that after puberty you only become magically responsible at 18.

"primitive society shortens childhood, and it works"

Pretty sure it only "works" because "primitive society" also SHORTENS LIFESPANS, OP.

Besides, why are you derailing this thread on cartoon CP into some soapbox for really young kids having to bear burdens/responsibilities before their time? (Hint: Puberty STARTS at 12 or 13, but doesn't end until you're at least in your mid-20s.)

Unless you're defending the idea that kids of 12 and 13 should get married to each other and start popping out kids of their own. Which is just several levels of WRONG and if you can't get why that is, then I have nothing further to say to you.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-08-26 21:19 (UTC) - Expand

Is "adulthood" as we perceive it a social construct, only semi-related to biological puberty?

Yes. Yes it is.

You know what else is a social construct?
Family beyond parents and small children (and even then the forms are mostly socialy-determined). Marriage. Concept of caring for your elders.
Hell, concept of caring for your pubescent children.
Why is it exactly that parents/caretakers should provide for a 12-13-years old?
Those can work. Hell, they did work and provided for themselves not that long ago. Why should we make a sole exception for sexual relationship, huh? You can have children - so go have your own family, you are too old to be a part of mine.
And, while we're at it, how about tossing out all that birth control shit?
Nothing natural about it, after all. You can have children - have them. Lots and lots of them.
That's your biological adulthood right there.

Only we don't operate on biology only. No social species does, it's just that our social constructs are much more complicated than most.
You are saying "socially and culturally' as if it is something superficial. It isn't. These are things that form us as species much more then our biology does. Especially since it's fucking hard to separate it from them. Hell, even our sexuality is geared towards establishing and mantaining social relations as much as t is geared towards reproduction.

There is no 'naturally meant to be'. If we weren't supposed to move past the wild, we wouldn't have the ability to. Nature is not some scripture of predisposed meanings and destiny.

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