fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2105 ]

[ SECRET POST #2105 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2105 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 107 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I sort of agree, but I'm probably even harsher than you. I avoid any kinkmeme (and parts of fandom) that

a) Enforce trigger warnings

b) Believe shipping preferences indicates morality and/or validity of your statements of liking characters

c) Don't think you can separate kink/fictional wants from what you like/think in reality.

That's a good philosophy. I've seen too many kink memes implode on themselves after the trigger warning police moved in, and then from there people start judging each other based on the prompts.

Kink memes are like, literally the least politically correct thing in existence by their very nature. Why are we trying to change that?

Kink memes are like, literally the least politically correct thing in existence by their very nature. Why are we trying to change that?

m f t e

I'm sorry, but what kink memes are is a safe place for triggers. They are TOTAL TRIGGER UTOPIA. That's just the nature of the beast. If your triggers are such that your typical kink meme prompts and fills, which are often quite traumatic and wrong which is a big reason why they arouse the people requesting them, are in constant danger of triggering and fucking you up, then you need to find another way to experience them. Trying to change what kink memes are and how they work is NOT THE ANSWER.

-Work together with others to find and make an indexing system that warns for the triggers you particularly need to worry about.

-Wait until kink meme fills are posted to an archive like Ao3, where the tagging and warning system is more elaborate.

-Modify your firefox through scripts and filters to block out certain words, phrases, whatever.

Trying to change the structure of a kink meme, and to have the writers cater to you, is NOT THE ANSWER. Writers should basically be filling kink meme prompts in a state of lustful near-drunkenness, tbh. Worries about offense should be their last priority.

This shit does nothing but cause bickering and festering and endless stupid-ass arguments. It kills creativity and kills kink memes completely dead. I've seen it over and over and over again.

Yeah. And it's not like I don't believe in triggers; I know they exist, several of my family members have them. I just have never seen a fandom comm where they've been implemented in any sort of useful way (since triggers tend to be things like specific tone of voice/wallpaper pattern/a certain piece of music and similar).

I also don't think it's either possible or desirable to make fandom a "safe space" for everyone (especially as a safe space can mean the exact opposite for two different people).

But most of all, it's the moral judgement on people's fantasies that bother me.

Man that trigger warning bit is the worst. Because it so seems like it should be an easy thing to do, and it never, ever is. Half the wankers will scream that triggers are obvious (but won't make a definitive list) the other half will scream that people are using trigger warnings for things that aren't and are degrading the meaning of trigger. In the middle are the writers who are damned if they warn and damned if they don't.

Sweet jeezus, THIS!

It doesn't exactly help that people are often using "squick" and "trigger" interchangeably.

I mostly go on as I always have in fandom, and don't warn for anything (though I do try to tag fic with what it contains; I just don't like the value judgement inherent in "warnings"). It's easy for me, who doesn't write much and mostly lurks, though.

You...don't like it when trigger warning are enforced? Why not? Usually I just see the meme mods post a list of required warnings, and then they enforce those. I've never seen it get out of hand.

Presumably the commenter is one of those people who just don't give a fuck if they cause someone else major distress.

If a kink meme doesn't enforce triggers, then the person with triggers shouldn't go on the kink meme. Easy peasy.

No.

What do you mean 'no'? If a kink meme makes trigger warnings optional, then no one's forcing you to go on if you have triggers.

I am sick as fuck and having a hard time both not being a dick and coming up with something that is going to convince an anon on a time-wasting comm to have a little sympathy for people in less fortunate situations so I'm going to stick with:

I do not have triggers myself but can recognize the good it does to take an extra step to try and ensure that I do not trigger emotional trauma in someone looking to relax and engage with like-minded people. And I do not believe warnings censor authors or cause enough inconvenience to people lucky enough to not be affected to justify shunning people who need them.

If you really begrudge taking a extra minute to warn for common triggers then there's really nothing I can say.

I totally understand where you are coming from... but that's not how triggers work. There are people with triggers who are perfectly okay with reading rape fics -- just not ones that include men with beards. And that's the problem. Trigger warnings don't actually protect the people with triggers, they can't, because that's not how triggers work. Trigger warnings are for these broad neat impersonal categories. Actual triggers are specific-to-that-person things. Like a phrase. Like a smell. Like a certain specific situation.

That's why no one can come up with a definitive list of trigger warnings. All they can do is come up with these really broad categories, that then, people fight over. And complain. Are hospitals a trigger? Well they could be to somebody, but who knows if that person is on that meme. Is saying "trigger warning: Hospital" demeaning the idea of triggers? That exact argument happened on a meme I was on. Someone was trying to be sensitive and got chewed out for it. That's why they are so toxic.

The reason why people are annoyed with the idea of trigger warnings on the meme isn't because they are meanies. It's because it's impossible. Flat out impossible to accomodate people with triggers on a meme.

Triggers aren't squicks, though the way warnings are currently set up, what they cover is basically squicks. Whether people's squicks deserve to be accomodated on a meme is another argument entirely.

Hello, perfectly reasonable person, I want to marry your comment.

NA

While I understand what you're saying, I really feel like this is a throw the baby out with the bathwater situation. If I were triggered by rape fic including men with beards, and someone had a generic non-con warning on a fic about a character who is sometimes bearded in canon, I would steer clear. People with triggers aren't inherently illogical or looking to be offended; many, like the OP, have constructed checklists of their own that include things that may be clues that a place may not be good for them to read in. Trigger warnings are one piece of that evaluation, not the whole thing. And I have never actually seen someone "chewed out" for warning for something like "serious illness" or "permanent injury", so I find your "hospital" example hard to imagine, although I realize stupid people on the internet have argued over stupider things.

I have a fairly common trigger that doesn't end up in fic much. I don't expect more than general warnings, but you can bet I read summaries carefully when they seem like they might include the thing that triggers me.

So basically, calling trigger warnings "toxic" and saying that they accommodate squicks rather than triggers when a number of other people with triggers are saying they're useful* seems pretty ridiculous to me.

*obviously not all people with triggers find them useful

I say it's toxic because it was toxic to the meme I was on. It caused endless amounts of wank, because no one could actually comply with it.

I don't know where it was on the meme, it was months ago, but yes, hospital was the bone of contention. Because you see mental illness is a trigger to people. So mentioning a hospital might cause people who have been hospitalized to flash back on their pain there. Except that someone else said that Hospitals weren't something reasonable to flash back on, and therefore the writer was wrong to mark it as a trigger warning.

Let me give you the height of absurdity: one person claimed that "Trigger warning: rape" triggered them, and that people shouldn't put what the trigger actually is in the warning.

Like I said, it's one of those things that seems like it should be easy enough for writers to comply with, but practically it simply doesn't work at all, except as something that foments huge amounts of wank.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-10-08 20:36 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

wauwy - 2012-10-09 05:22 (UTC) - Expand

We're almost having two separate arguments here. At no point did I say "squicks" deserve to be included into trigger warnings.

I don't appreciate when people devalue the meaning of "trigger warning" and I don't commonly see what you are describing with "broad categories". I can probably count times I did on one hand. They certainly don't seem harmful enough to throw out the entire concept of trigger warnings.

If a person has a specific trigger like "rape involving men with beards" wouldn't they avoid rape fics, rape fics involving men, or at least stick to prompts involving characters they know do not have facial hair if the comm won't accommodate that specific trigger?

I believe we should cover at least common trigger warnings, people with specific triggers can usually extrapolate from that if the risk if too great, and I personally have been on comms where a member has politely asked us to add for a specific, personal trigger and people did and there were no problems.

I understand you can't warn for everything and people should keep that in mind if their trigger warning doesn't make a kinkmeme's list. I don't think there should be backlash on people who make mistakes when warning, but I don't believe that should mean kinkmemes should be no-go zones for people with PTSD and effort to attempt to include others can certainly be made.

I think what it comes down to is that I am grateful to have so many people who put in the time and effort to create safe spaces for me to enjoy free content, sometimes even geared toward my wishes. I don't see a problem with a little extra effort to include other people. Especially considering the people who need trigger warnings are probably benefited by places to unwind more than I am.

(no subject)

velvet_mace - 2012-10-08 18:05 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2012-10-09 00:06 (UTC) - Expand

Hold aloft that torch of sanity, good citizen.

Edited 2012-10-09 05:13 (UTC)

Presumably the commenter is one of those people who just don't give a fuck if they cause someone else major distress.

dat's gotta be it

I'm one of those people. I go around spamming goat.se wherever and whenever I can. It causes me untold delight.

Two things, warnings and trigger warnings aren't the same thing. A list of required warnings is a whole lot better because at least most people will be able to have a clue how to follow it. However that has nothing to do with triggers, it's just common squicks. Even there, it can be a problem when there's some debate over where and how things get warned, for example, is an unwanted hug considered non-con? And then you want to know how closely the mod needs to watch things. And what about all those other squicky things that don't make the list, for example vomiting, or pissing kinks, or animal abuse?

Triggers are more problematic because 1) Triggers aren't nice big broad easy to explain categories. They are specific, individual things that are unique to each person. While you can have trigger warnings, they won't actually prevent people from being triggered. 1) People tend to drag their life stories into the debates. You can't have people feeling safe enough to admit their fantasies at the same time you are yelling at them that their fantasies have made someone vomit and cry for days. So too much of this is death for a kinkmeme.

A kink meme thrives off of people feeling safe enough to prompt and write fics that are embarrassing, gross, unusual and unpopular and otherwise not something that people would feel comfortable writing under their own name in a main com. It cannot be a safe space because the prompts aren't safe. And it's actually safest for the most fragile readers to know and have themselves steeled for a potentially rough ride, than let them think that they can plough ahead without worry because everyone will look after them.

This comment forever and congratulations on your brain for it is beautiful.

Well, mostly because a lot of people don't actually know what "trigger" means, and use it for "things that I don't like" or "things that make me uncomfortable". And sometimes "a tool to make people ashamed for writing what I don't like".

They're always incomplete. A lot of people who use them think they're being thoughtful, but really, triggers don't work like that. A trigger could be literally anything. Triggers are very personal.

There's also the present accompanying culture around the trigger warning crowd. I don't like it. It's too judgemental.

I've noticed that a and c often go hand-in hand.

I like you

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