[ SECRET POST #2105 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2105 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 107 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[velvet_mace]

I judge fandoms by their kink memes as well:

1) Can they keep them going or do they die off due to too many strangulating rules

2) Are all pairings treated equally in the eyes of the meme, or are less popular pairings shoved off onto a different (ignored) page.

3) Is the reaction to crack prompts to have multiple fills, no fills, or cries of troll

4) Do people see squicky kinks as an amusing challenge or a disgusting turn off.

5) Are AU's and crossovers enthusiastically filled or ignored.

6) Is kink-shaming discouraged or allowed.

If a fandom is unwelcoming to people with unusual kinks and tastes, or is easily offended and generally takes itself too seriously, I avoid it. Fandoms that encourage variety generally are full of enthusiasm and fun and joy. Those that spend most of their time complaining about elements they don't like are usually miserable and aggravating and full of cliques.

TL;DR -- the OP is avoiding the fandoms I like best, and I'm totally okay with that.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

avoiding how? I'll generally read everything, and have no particular OTPs that are better than others.

Quitting fandoms outright is dependent on misunderstanding how to label warnings, and whether or not the fem side of het parings requests gets equal attention. the other parts of my list help to balance out the second thing, but not caring about warnings is a pretty clear signal to stay away.

Re: OP

[velvet_mace]

Because these are things that don't encourage people to write. They are all things that encourage people not to write.

Let's start with label warnings: on the surface it should be a no duh kind of thing, but it's not. Every single meme I've seen that has gotten tough on warning labels has gone through the same sort of ache: who gets to define what is non-con and what's dub con, what needs to be warned for and what doesn't? It's always inspired a group of people who squick over non-con bringing up real life rape and complaining about how disrespectful people are to those with that kink. What happens if a fic that wasn't originally ment to be non-con organically ends up going that direction?

The memes that fly best are the ones where people warn as a courtesy not as a requirement, and where it's generally considered to be a read-at-your-own risk environment. In that, your test would not be useful.

Now onto the strict percentages of cunnilingus to fellatio. That's not how writers work. They can't write by quota. They write by inspiration. You can't make more cunnilingus fics appear if there is no one inspired to create them. All you can do is discourage people from writing fics with fellatio. And once you start discouraging people from writing and prompting the fics they truly want, then the meme starts to die.

You can choose to fill prompts based on your quota system, or to prompt based on it, but that's the extent to which that quota system is helpful.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Hmmm... then I oversimplified fellatio vs cunnilingus, and a lot of poorly worded sentiment on my part then. I don't want a quota, but it was a really simplistic way for me to say that there's equal attention all around, rather than the woman being degraded or secondary to the man getting off in open het prompts/requests that don't specifically ask for that. Some kink memes I've ended up equating the two in my head, because the trend was to describe them as unpleasant, or the overall feeling was that the woman wasn't supposed to enjoy herself, in any way.

so... my mistake

As for warnings and labels... I guess I will have to disagree? I understand what you're saying, but I'm on the other side of that discussion. Noncon triggers me outright, and dubcon triggers on bad days. I would like to be aware of what I'm getting into before I'm hit by it, or so that I can come back to it when I'm in the right head space.

...but I don't engage in discussions about whether or not it should be enforced, and I try to stay out of those arguments, because of what you said--that it turns into some big squick dog pile, which is sometimes worse than accidentally stumbling into an unlabeled dub/non con story. I just wish that it's recognized as important. Oftentimes people who don't warn and are politely asked to... react defensively, and I just... don't think that's okay, either.

Re: OP

[sockpants]

What if people do give the het side of pairings equal attention, but stay away from cunnilingus?

I'll be honest with you: cunnilingus is one of my biggest turn offs. It is one of the few things that will make me automatically back-button if it's in a fic, and by extension, I will not write it. But when I do write het, I would hope that just because my het fics do not include that particular act that you would judge them, and by extension the entire fandom, based on that.

I mean, I think I do pretty good in having everyone in the fic get an enjoyable time, at least. Writing an entire fandom off because a certain act is not preferred seems to be a bit extreme.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

then it falls under #4, which is consensual fun times had by all.

The cunnilingus part isn't really the point of the 2nd condition. It's mostly because there are particular fandoms who tend to degrade the fem side of a het paring, or not write her as having any kind of... enjoyment, or very temporary enjoyment, or is generally unimportant.

I oversimplified it, so... it's poor wording on my part. =/

[sarnath]

I sort of agree, but I'm probably even harsher than you. I avoid any kinkmeme (and parts of fandom) that

a) Enforce trigger warnings

b) Believe shipping preferences indicates morality and/or validity of your statements of liking characters

c) Don't think you can separate kink/fictional wants from what you like/think in reality.

[sockpants]

That's a good philosophy. I've seen too many kink memes implode on themselves after the trigger warning police moved in, and then from there people start judging each other based on the prompts.

Kink memes are like, literally the least politically correct thing in existence by their very nature. Why are we trying to change that?

[wauwy]

Kink memes are like, literally the least politically correct thing in existence by their very nature. Why are we trying to change that?

m f t e

I'm sorry, but what kink memes are is a safe place for triggers. They are TOTAL TRIGGER UTOPIA. That's just the nature of the beast. If your triggers are such that your typical kink meme prompts and fills, which are often quite traumatic and wrong which is a big reason why they arouse the people requesting them, are in constant danger of triggering and fucking you up, then you need to find another way to experience them. Trying to change what kink memes are and how they work is NOT THE ANSWER.

-Work together with others to find and make an indexing system that warns for the triggers you particularly need to worry about.

-Wait until kink meme fills are posted to an archive like Ao3, where the tagging and warning system is more elaborate.

-Modify your firefox through scripts and filters to block out certain words, phrases, whatever.

Trying to change the structure of a kink meme, and to have the writers cater to you, is NOT THE ANSWER. Writers should basically be filling kink meme prompts in a state of lustful near-drunkenness, tbh. Worries about offense should be their last priority.

This shit does nothing but cause bickering and festering and endless stupid-ass arguments. It kills creativity and kills kink memes completely dead. I've seen it over and over and over again.

[sarnath]

Yeah. And it's not like I don't believe in triggers; I know they exist, several of my family members have them. I just have never seen a fandom comm where they've been implemented in any sort of useful way (since triggers tend to be things like specific tone of voice/wallpaper pattern/a certain piece of music and similar).

I also don't think it's either possible or desirable to make fandom a "safe space" for everyone (especially as a safe space can mean the exact opposite for two different people).

But most of all, it's the moral judgement on people's fantasies that bother me.

[velvet_mace]

Man that trigger warning bit is the worst. Because it so seems like it should be an easy thing to do, and it never, ever is. Half the wankers will scream that triggers are obvious (but won't make a definitive list) the other half will scream that people are using trigger warnings for things that aren't and are degrading the meaning of trigger. In the middle are the writers who are damned if they warn and damned if they don't.

[(Anonymous)]

Sweet jeezus, THIS!

[sarnath]

It doesn't exactly help that people are often using "squick" and "trigger" interchangeably.

I mostly go on as I always have in fandom, and don't warn for anything (though I do try to tag fic with what it contains; I just don't like the value judgement inherent in "warnings"). It's easy for me, who doesn't write much and mostly lurks, though.

[(Anonymous)]

You...don't like it when trigger warning are enforced? Why not? Usually I just see the meme mods post a list of required warnings, and then they enforce those. I've never seen it get out of hand.

[(Anonymous)]

Presumably the commenter is one of those people who just don't give a fuck if they cause someone else major distress.

[(Anonymous)]

If a kink meme doesn't enforce triggers, then the person with triggers shouldn't go on the kink meme. Easy peasy.

[anonymouslyyours]

No.

[(Anonymous)]

What do you mean 'no'? If a kink meme makes trigger warnings optional, then no one's forcing you to go on if you have triggers.

[anonymouslyyours]

I am sick as fuck and having a hard time both not being a dick and coming up with something that is going to convince an anon on a time-wasting comm to have a little sympathy for people in less fortunate situations so I'm going to stick with:

I do not have triggers myself but can recognize the good it does to take an extra step to try and ensure that I do not trigger emotional trauma in someone looking to relax and engage with like-minded people. And I do not believe warnings censor authors or cause enough inconvenience to people lucky enough to not be affected to justify shunning people who need them.

If you really begrudge taking a extra minute to warn for common triggers then there's really nothing I can say.

[wauwy]

Presumably the commenter is one of those people who just don't give a fuck if they cause someone else major distress.

dat's gotta be it

I'm one of those people. I go around spamming goat.se wherever and whenever I can. It causes me untold delight.

[velvet_mace]

Two things, warnings and trigger warnings aren't the same thing. A list of required warnings is a whole lot better because at least most people will be able to have a clue how to follow it. However that has nothing to do with triggers, it's just common squicks. Even there, it can be a problem when there's some debate over where and how things get warned, for example, is an unwanted hug considered non-con? And then you want to know how closely the mod needs to watch things. And what about all those other squicky things that don't make the list, for example vomiting, or pissing kinks, or animal abuse?

Triggers are more problematic because 1) Triggers aren't nice big broad easy to explain categories. They are specific, individual things that are unique to each person. While you can have trigger warnings, they won't actually prevent people from being triggered. 1) People tend to drag their life stories into the debates. You can't have people feeling safe enough to admit their fantasies at the same time you are yelling at them that their fantasies have made someone vomit and cry for days. So too much of this is death for a kinkmeme.

A kink meme thrives off of people feeling safe enough to prompt and write fics that are embarrassing, gross, unusual and unpopular and otherwise not something that people would feel comfortable writing under their own name in a main com. It cannot be a safe space because the prompts aren't safe. And it's actually safest for the most fragile readers to know and have themselves steeled for a potentially rough ride, than let them think that they can plough ahead without worry because everyone will look after them.

[(Anonymous)]

This comment forever and congratulations on your brain for it is beautiful.

[sarnath]

Well, mostly because a lot of people don't actually know what "trigger" means, and use it for "things that I don't like" or "things that make me uncomfortable". And sometimes "a tool to make people ashamed for writing what I don't like".

They're always incomplete. A lot of people who use them think they're being thoughtful, but really, triggers don't work like that. A trigger could be literally anything. Triggers are very personal.

There's also the present accompanying culture around the trigger warning crowd. I don't like it. It's too judgemental.

[visp]

I've noticed that a and c often go hand-in hand.

[wauwy]

I like you