fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2107 ]

[ SECRET POST #2107 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2107 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[gravity falls]

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03.

[Kuroko no Basket]

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04.

[World of Warcraft]

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[Batman: Arkham City]

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[Blake's 7]

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[Sherlock (2002)]

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[Beelzebub]

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[Kuroko no Basuke]

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[Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun]

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[Spec Ops: The Line]

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[Supernatural]

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[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]

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[Legend of Korra]

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15.

[Community]

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[The Good Guy]

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[Journey Into Mystery 2011]

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[Rune Factory 3]

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[Journey]

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20.

[South Park]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 065 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Today, over on Avengerkink, an anon, in response to the fact that 80% of Tony-related prompts and fills on the meme involve him bottoming, requested a super-top!Tony fic.

A rude anon added that she was sick of Tony being portrayed as a pathetic, grovelling, slutty uke, which set off a shitstorm of people taking umbrage at the comment and then disagreeing with each other over the concept of the ukefication trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wimpification) where the bottom partner in fanfic is portrayed with OOC misogynistic stereotypes, and exlucsive-bottoming and why certain characters seem to have big cohorts of fans who always write them bottoming in their fandom's fic.

Link to original prompt and kerfuffle:

http://avengerkink.livejournal.com/11065.html?thread=24508473#t24508473

Link to the discussion post that was set up when the mod froze the thread:

http://avengerkink.livejournal.com/1154.html?thread=24519554#t24519554

So what are your thoughts, guys? There are some characters who I just like seeing on the bottom more than others, for reasons relating to their personality or appearance (I like bottom!Tony because I like seeing swaggering snarky jackasses get their pride stripped away until they're reduced to begging and moaning, and I like picturing tiny manic darkhaired Robert Downey Jr getting pounded raw by another guy), but ukefication is really OOC and misogynistic and rage-inducing when personality traits are flattened by the heteronormative steamroller, and in this fandom it often comes with a very condescending attitude towards Tony. So I was just wondering if you guys had pent-up rants about this topic or what other fandoms you have seen it in.

I've stopped caring. I just backclick.

Ukefication is one of those tropes that make me giggle because it's SOOOO obvious that the writers who use it are teenage girls who don't know how adults are supposed to act and are over-identifying with a character.

From one of the avengerskink links: "I figure it comes from girls identifying too hard and then using all their internalized misogyny and experience with bad romance novels where all the characters are horrible to write this one character that appears over and over again. Uke!Duo is uke!Sano is uke!Omi is uke!Tony, god help us all."

And I was like, fucking exactly. (Goddamn it, Duo.)

Oh man, I agree with you 100%, especially about Tony. My favorite fics are the ones where Tony is the most pushy bottom in the world, pissing people off even when they are currently fucking him. I actually haven't seen very much uke!Tony (IMO it seems to happen more often to Steve, strangely enough), but when I do that's my cue to leave the page and cross that author off my list.

Lots of fandoms have this issue, like Harry OR Draco in Harry Potter, Chekov from the Star Trek 2009, Kurt on Glee, (and oh man the unfortunate implications there -- effeminate = bottom? bottom = uke? and of course he always gets called "babe" *shudder*), and even DEAN on Supernatural depending on the pairing. Generally, if a guy is shorter and/or skinnier than the other, authors lean towards ukefication of them.

Every time I see it my brain kind of shorts out in a blaze of white-hot rage.

I always prefer my favorite character in every fandom to bottom. Only thing is sometimes the ones I like are manly characters that people make top more in most fics. What really makes me dislike those fics is the how they make the bottom into those ukes.
But I also dislike it when someone writes my favorite character into the uke, so it narrows down you're choices of good reads out there.
Why do people still write like that anyway? I don't like it and have never liked it.

Because they do like it?

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

tamabonotchi - 2012-10-10 00:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 00:06 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

tamabonotchi - 2012-10-10 00:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 01:14 (UTC) - Expand

I hate ukeification.

However, I'm just kinda burnt out by all of it. People want to write what they want to write. I wouldn't dare try to stop them because it's not my place. So me complaining about it is like yelling into the wind. There's no point.

You can discuss all of the problematic implications until you're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is that it's a guilty pleasure for some people. Maybe some people will change but most won't.

So I don't care anymore. I can't bring myself to. It's annoying. I don't like it. But I have a scroll option and a back button. I use it.

I agree with tyger that Steve gets the blushing!ingenue!girly! stereotype more often than Tony (and jesus fuck is it annoying), but I'm giggling like mad as I remember the summer's unending flood of bottom!Tony fics dropping to more and more depraved levels of degradation and humiliation while I sat and binged like a kid in a candy store of h/c idfic smut :D

As for the ukefication: XMFC!Charles Xavier oh my fucking god D: And the vaguely effeminate appearance and demeanor + british accent makes the ukefication way worse than with character like Tony where that kind of behavior is meant to contrast with his default personality, because yeah, whatever, effeminate = the woman = useless weepy damsel who can't handle any problems or accomplish anything, that's just GREAT to hear. ajkfhksfjhhfkjd

Also, Rorschach. What. How did that happen to Rorschach. I can't.

Steve might get uke'd in Steve/Tony fics a lot, but almost every other slash pairing that involves Tony seems to be flooded with uber!bottom Tony. A lot of them have a fair bit of slut shaming involved, too, so I don't even know what to think most of the time except "ew."

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

intrigueing - 2012-10-10 00:17 (UTC) - Expand

Rorschach.

Rorschach.

What the fuck.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore. D:

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

(Anonymous) - 2012-10-10 02:24 (UTC) - Expand

seconding Charles in XMFC

i got so sick of it i just wanted a fic where he went all BAMF on everyone.

I can see why a character being portrayed as a wimp is annoying. I can't see why a character being portrayed as a bottom is annoying. I can't see why a character being portrayed as feminine or effeminate is annoying. (Not to one's taste, not IC in one's opinion, not fun to read, etc. does not equal annoying.) I can't see why characters being portrayed as exclusively preferring one role is inherently annoying either, though I can see how it's annoying if people insist that disagreeing is "wrong" somehow.

Well. I don't speak for the thread-starter, but I find Character B = bottom to be annoying a lot because it's usually based on some pretty stupid stereotypes. Friendly, energetic, talkative, shorter, tactile, flirty--these are traits that tend to be deemed feminine, and fandom is ridiculously predictable in that the character who has those traits is widely considered the character that must bottom. Not even the character certain people like bottoming; the one who must bottom at all costs, and anything else is like an affront to the pairing.

It's a really stupid attitude to have, and I have seen it in literally every slash fandom I've ever been in. Not by everyone, true, but certainly by enough people that the horrible motives are horribly clear: some slash fans want some sort of woman stand-in, even when the pairing has two men in it. And that is annoying.

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

(Anonymous) - 2012-10-10 00:20 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 01:18 (UTC) - Expand

I can't see why a character being portrayed as feminine or effeminate is annoying.

I disagree. "Not IC" is the epitome of annoying. Because you might as well just be writing your own original character at that point. The story is no longer about the characters I set out to read. Ditto for masculinizing a character who canonically isn't because they want a "seme" character.

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 02:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

ariakas - 2012-10-10 02:33 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 02:41 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

ariakas - 2012-10-10 02:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 03:13 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

ariakas - 2012-10-10 09:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 10:52 (UTC) - Expand

Holmes in the 2009 Sherlock Holmes movie. It's sorta canon that he's a semi-headcase who relies on Watson a lot, but damn.

RDJ must just give off a vibe that makes people want to rape him or something.

LOL I remember the rage-fests that happened over this trend regarding Zuko from ATLA. Especially in Jet/Zuko fics, I think.

I used to be surprised when I came across ukefication in non-Japanese fandoms, because for a long time I only encountered it in anime/manga fanfic. Then the Avengers film came out and suddenly there was about ten times more Marvel slashfic than there used to be, and I kept seeing OOC!uke!Tony Stark all over the place. It was a bit of a shock.

I have top/bottom preferences for most of the slash pairings I like, and usually the character I prefer as a bottom is the more masculine one. And I only like het pairings when the woman tops. The seme/uke dynamic seriously squicks me if it's M/M or M/F. If both characters are women, though? Masculine top + Feminine bottom = YES PLEASE. I don't know why. I can't explain why that appeals to me even though I would find the exact same thing unappealing if it was two men. But it's definitely not because I want my femmeslash to be heteronormative (if that was true, I don't think I would get squicked by het where the man tops).

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 01:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

elaminator - 2012-10-10 02:03 (UTC) - Expand

I have...all kinds of issues with how so many fic writers equate being penetrated = being submissive. And that by 'submissive' they usually mean 'doormat'. People *can* be really forceful when they're getting a dick up their ass (or mouth), dammit!

Kinda related but I have issues with the phrase 'topping from the bottom' and the like. I know that it's a handy way of saying 'this person is dominant even though they're doing things typically associated with being submissive,' but...I dunno, I guess I wish fandom wasn't so hung up on having clearly delineated roles in sex scenes? Like I think that's why so many fics have boring sex scenes where there's a little foreplay and then there's by-the-numbers anal sex, because people feel there has to be an obvious 'giver' and 'receiver'. And stuff like frottage isn't popular even though it's a far more common sexual act irl, because omg how can you write sex when the character's roles aren't rigidly defined?!?!

...I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It's just something I've been thinking about for awhile and this seemed like a good place to put it?

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 01:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

darkmanifest - 2012-10-10 02:44 (UTC) - Expand

I liked bottom!Tony initially because it was such a contrast to him in canon. But then.. I think fandom overdid it. Now I'd rather top!Tony more than bottom. But eh, as long as it's well written, I don't mind. I'm just more likely to click on top if I see it.

(Also, is there a distinction between bottom and uke? I'm fairly unfamiliar with slash terminology :/ )

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 01:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

intrigueing - 2012-10-10 01:50 (UTC) - Expand

I don't mind it. I think people care too much about what people like tbh.

Is it shallow of me if I say I just like imagining RDJ getting fucked up the ass a lot more than I like imagining him fucking someone else up the ass? Because what the actor looks/acts like, especially in relation to the actors of the characters I'm slashing his character with, is the main reason for my smut preferences, not only in Avengers fandom, but in pretty much all my fandoms.

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

stainless - 2012-10-10 02:27 (UTC) - Expand

I have certain characters that I love seeing on the bottom. I do not, however, love seeing them "ukefied". All of them have strong personalities and seeing them turned into OOC, weepy, whimpery ukes -- not to mention having their partners turned into OOC rapists -- is anathema to me.

Fortunately there are some good writers (or at least there were) for my pairings. I just wish some of them were still writing.

I have a problem with bottom!Tony because of the rest of the story it's usually in. Like Fandom approved Abusive Steve. Tony who is totally nonfunctional adult man. Tony is totally incapable of caring for himself and working. Tony that needs his Top to tell him to do stuff.

I just...really hate what Avengers fandom is doing to Tony. I want to read Tony being freaking awesome and kicking as and functioning despite all the shit (like he did in all the movies, you know).

Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?

intrigueing - 2012-10-10 13:10 (UTC) - Expand

Oh man, missed the shitstorm. I love watching them as I happen.

I don't really have any kink related rants. If I want something I'll write a prompt on it, but I'm not going to hate on people for prompting something I don't like.

I guess I'm not too keen on Thor/Loki sex. Um, urgh. Sorry, I'm way too laidback in the nirvana don't give a fuck state.

I hate people who hate on other prompts? I had a prompt hated on once in the avatar kink. I don't think it ever got filled, because it was filled with people discussing whether my fucking prompt was canon or not (in a KINK MEME). So I guess that was rage inducing because I fear they chased away any potential filler anons >:[

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