[ SECRET POST #2125 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2125 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 124 secrets from Secret Submission Post #304.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat x 4 and counting. Bets? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Serious question: how is Roseanne's views about pre-op trans considered transphobic? I had never heard the word before but I assume it is kinda like homophobic where there isn't any real phobia and it is just that the so-called phobic person doesn't like a certain group because they're in that group. If the comments are right that she's talking about pre-op trans, then it seems like she doesn't have a problem with trans people, just a view about pre-op trans people that the SJWs don't like.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, she basically says that she can say who can or cannot be called a woman based on their genitalia, completely bypassing the fact that what you have between your legs doesn't define who you are. Considering that getting surgery is not always easy for trans people (some countries still require sterilisation before a complete sex change), and that not everyone is either a man or a woman and everything is not always black and white, her tweets are hurtful.

She's not saying that she hates trans people, per say, but her lack of knowledge led her to make extremely hurtful comments.

[(Anonymous)]

" (some countries still require sterilisation before a complete sex change)"

Ok. I'm confused. While requiring anyone to be sterilized is kind of horrible, doesn't the operation itself render the sex organs incapable of reproduction?

[(Anonymous)]

Not necessarily. You can store some of your sperm in a clinic, or ask to retain the use of your uterus (though I'm far from being aware of all the reproductive options available in this situation), which is in some cases, fully functional (in Arizona, a judge delayed a divorce procedure because the husband, a trans man, had several children post-op, and the judge believed the marriage wasn't valid for that reason).

[(Anonymous)]

Storing your sperm doesn't mean you're not sterile though. Don't some cis men do it before getting vasectomies, just in case they change their mind?

[(Anonymous)]

...Well, that's post AN op, certainly. But I'm pretty sure at that point you're a trans-hermaphrodite.

[(Anonymous)]

For cis men becoming trans women, yes. But it also means that trans women who can't afford surgery, are too young for surgery or who for medical reasons can't have surgery are therefore men in Roseanne's eyes.

Cis women becoming trans men often don't have hysterectomies or genital reconstruction. A hysterectomy is a serious surgery (and the hormones take care of menstrual/risk of pregnancy issues anyway) and surgical penile reconstruction is not very good at the moment. Therefore, all these trans men are women in Roseanne's eyes. But it also means that in many countries they can't then be legally men.

[maverickz3r0]

Sorry, I know you mean well, but I'm just kind of wincing at your wording here. Cis doesn't mean 'pre-op trans.' It means 'identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth.' A cis person can't 'become' trans any more than a straight person can be 'turned' gay. Transitioning is the term used generally I believe.

From what I know you're quite right about the surgeries for trans men, though.

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Thank you for your answer. I hadn't considered much of that (this isn't an issue I have much experience with) and I didn't know that about the sterilization. That's barbaric!

[(Anonymous)]

Not positive, but I believe she was saying you're not really trans until you're post-op, and therefor are not really a man or woman if your body doesn't yet match your mind. That's transphobic.

[ellie_oops]

There is a "theory" among certain feminists that trans women are not "real" women and thus should not be part of the "sisterhood." Their thinking is that since they were born with a penis they will always have male privilege. Some will even go so far as to say that trans women just want to appropriate "womanhood." That they are going through all these surgeries, procedures and hormone treatments just so that they can co-op the woman's struggle.

The Roseanne debate centered around public restrooms and which rest room a trans person should use. Roseanne's argument was that a pre-op transwoman, since they have a penis should use the men's room, and that they should not be in the ladies room. The reason being that places like changing rooms and restrooms should be "safe and private places" for women. The thinking is that having a physical man in that space is harmful and dangerous to women. IMO, that thinking kind of feeds into the rhetoric of "ALL MEN ARE PERVERT RAPISTS" and "ALL MEN ARE EVIL, DIE SCUM!!!!" It also diminishes and trivializes what trans people (pre and post op) go through by saying "I don't care what you've been through, you're not a real woman."

Sorry for the teel deer, but it's a complex issue.

[(Anonymous)]

Erm, you do realise that vast majority women who would feel uncomfortable and unsafe about the idea of a man in the womens changing room, aren't radfems who think that all men are rapists?

[(Anonymous)]

THIS YO. I don't mind sharing bathrooms etc. with male-bodied persons that I KNOW, but I would be profoundly uncomfortable sharing intimate space, where I am in a vulnerable position, with male-bodied persons who I do NOT know. No, I don't think all men are rapists. That's absurd. But I, like the VAST majority of women, do NOT feel comfortable sharing intimate space with male-bodied strangers! Furthermore, who's to say that predators wouldn't pretend to be trans* to gain access to women-only spaces?

oh THAT argument

[(Anonymous)]

Furthermore, who's to say that predators wouldn't pretend to be trans* to gain access to women-only spaces?

Wot.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that most people don't like changing around other people in general.

However, there is this thing of people being uncomfortable changing around the opposite gender. I always wondered why that was. I mean, is it a sexual thing? If that's the case, where do gay people fit in to this? I remember in high school there was this one lesbian girl in our gym class and other girls would give her hard time and act like she was perving on them or what-not. There was no out gay guys at my school, but I'm sure as hell if their was, the other guys would be giving him a hard time. I think it's like, if you're attracted to women (male or female) it's like people expect you to perv in the change room (and vice versa if you're a gal/guy attracted to men). That was the attitude at high school anyways.

Funny enough, when I went to university all the bathrooms on res, including showers are co-ed. They're individually stalled, but you still have a bunch of towel-clad people in a room together and just hanging around in general. It's so casual in the dorm. People hang out in bras and boxers in the commons, and no one cares. At my high school, everyone would freaked at the idea.

[inkdust]

I've been trying to figure this out myself. I'm female and bisexual, so theoretically I would consider both men and women to be potentially attractive and attracted to me. But I'm still pretty uncomfortable with sharing a public restroom with men, whereas stick me in a bathroom with a bunch of lesbians and I have no problem. But each gender has the same sexual factor for me. I'm starting to think it's something about same vs different for me, or maybe completely a cultural influence.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't be comfortable sharing a locker room with a bunch of guys, but would have no problem sharing a locker room with women who are attracted to women. I am not sure why. Maybe it's an assumption of behavior thing? I know that in college, I lived for two years on floors with males and females, and two years on female-only floors, and the female-only floors had about 90% less drunken, smoke-filled (in smoke-free dorm, RAGE) parties.

[(Anonymous)]

they aren't men. so you aren't sharing a changing room with men. and please imagine how the trans* person would feel in that situation, you think they aren't uncomfortable or feeling unsafe?

[(Anonymous)]

I personally, do not feel anymore uncomfortable around a man than I would a women.
However, I respect that anyone, regardless of gender, has the right to safe space when changing or what-not. Women who are uncomfortable changing around men, and men who are uncomfortable changing around women, already have society enforcing a system that supports offers the safety they need.

But, I ask everyone, what of women who feel unsafe around other women? One of my dear friends was raped by her ex-girlfriend, and she feels very uncomfortable around women especially with changing. It's limited her from a lot of activities (she doesn't feel comfortable joining a gym, or joining to a water park with us, etc.). Shouldn't she deserve some kind of safe space too? (Same for men who are uncomfortable around other men?).

[(Anonymous)]

Except transwomen are, in fact, women. And honestly, how often do you get a look at someone's genitals in a women's bathroom? I highly doubt any pre-op transwomen are going to be barging into bathrooms and waving their junk in other women's faces. They just want to be able to use the restroom assigned to their gender (or, if they're lucky, gender neutral restrooms) in peace. There is a hell of a lot of risk to transwomen forced to use men's restrooms, especially in any place where the men using said bathrooms aren't openminded or accepting of trans people.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS.

[(Anonymous)]

If a trans-woman is pre-op but otherwise fully presenting as a woman, which changing room should she use? She can't very well walk into the men's room. Best case scenario, she's just assumed to be a cis-woman and gets kicked out for being in the wrong room. Worst case scenario... well, it could get very bad.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I think this issue is a little more complicated than people want to make it. I think trans women are women, whether they're pre or post-op. But I also recognize that women being told to ignore their own discomfort or fear and concede to the comfort of the person they register as male is also a sexism issue (even if in this case there's no man actually involved).

Years ago I went to a gym where someone I assumed was a trans woman used the ladies' dressing room. I didn't know her, but assumed from her appearance and presence in the ladies' locker room that she was a trans woman. I never complained about sharing the room or thought she didn't have a right to be there. But if I happened to run into her when I stepped out of the shower I did have a moment of "guy in the ladies room!" before correcting myself.

[truxillogical]

So not the point, but...aren't most pre-op transfolk looking to get the operation usually required to live as a year in the gender they're getting the op for? Because if that's the case, I swear that Dear Abby or Anne Landers or one of them said that it includes bathrooms too.

Also...appropriating "womanhood." Wowzers.

[(Anonymous)]

I believe the current Radfem line is also that Transwomen are men who "failed" at masculinity, hence them trying to "appropriate womanhood". I just cannot even with those people.