[ SECRET POST #2125 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2125 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 124 secrets from Secret Submission Post #304.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat x 4 and counting. Bets? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ellie_oops]

There is a "theory" among certain feminists that trans women are not "real" women and thus should not be part of the "sisterhood." Their thinking is that since they were born with a penis they will always have male privilege. Some will even go so far as to say that trans women just want to appropriate "womanhood." That they are going through all these surgeries, procedures and hormone treatments just so that they can co-op the woman's struggle.

The Roseanne debate centered around public restrooms and which rest room a trans person should use. Roseanne's argument was that a pre-op transwoman, since they have a penis should use the men's room, and that they should not be in the ladies room. The reason being that places like changing rooms and restrooms should be "safe and private places" for women. The thinking is that having a physical man in that space is harmful and dangerous to women. IMO, that thinking kind of feeds into the rhetoric of "ALL MEN ARE PERVERT RAPISTS" and "ALL MEN ARE EVIL, DIE SCUM!!!!" It also diminishes and trivializes what trans people (pre and post op) go through by saying "I don't care what you've been through, you're not a real woman."

Sorry for the teel deer, but it's a complex issue.

[(Anonymous)]

Erm, you do realise that vast majority women who would feel uncomfortable and unsafe about the idea of a man in the womens changing room, aren't radfems who think that all men are rapists?

[(Anonymous)]

THIS YO. I don't mind sharing bathrooms etc. with male-bodied persons that I KNOW, but I would be profoundly uncomfortable sharing intimate space, where I am in a vulnerable position, with male-bodied persons who I do NOT know. No, I don't think all men are rapists. That's absurd. But I, like the VAST majority of women, do NOT feel comfortable sharing intimate space with male-bodied strangers! Furthermore, who's to say that predators wouldn't pretend to be trans* to gain access to women-only spaces?

oh THAT argument

[(Anonymous)]

Furthermore, who's to say that predators wouldn't pretend to be trans* to gain access to women-only spaces?

Wot.

Re: oh THAT argument

[(Anonymous)]

if being trans*women allows male-bodied persons access to women-only spaces, then male predators might well take advantage of the fact by claiming to be trans*women as an excuse to get access to those spaces. of course it's a small possibility but it could happen.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that most people don't like changing around other people in general.

However, there is this thing of people being uncomfortable changing around the opposite gender. I always wondered why that was. I mean, is it a sexual thing? If that's the case, where do gay people fit in to this? I remember in high school there was this one lesbian girl in our gym class and other girls would give her hard time and act like she was perving on them or what-not. There was no out gay guys at my school, but I'm sure as hell if their was, the other guys would be giving him a hard time. I think it's like, if you're attracted to women (male or female) it's like people expect you to perv in the change room (and vice versa if you're a gal/guy attracted to men). That was the attitude at high school anyways.

Funny enough, when I went to university all the bathrooms on res, including showers are co-ed. They're individually stalled, but you still have a bunch of towel-clad people in a room together and just hanging around in general. It's so casual in the dorm. People hang out in bras and boxers in the commons, and no one cares. At my high school, everyone would freaked at the idea.

[inkdust]

I've been trying to figure this out myself. I'm female and bisexual, so theoretically I would consider both men and women to be potentially attractive and attracted to me. But I'm still pretty uncomfortable with sharing a public restroom with men, whereas stick me in a bathroom with a bunch of lesbians and I have no problem. But each gender has the same sexual factor for me. I'm starting to think it's something about same vs different for me, or maybe completely a cultural influence.

[(Anonymous)]

But how do you feel about trans-women? Because they're not men, they're women who may or may not have a penis. Would a woman with an enlarged clitoris bother you?

I'm a pre-op FtM, and I typically use the ladies room due to my more feminine appearance. I've also been known to pop over to the gent's room if the line's shorter. No one freaks out, I use a stall and no one cares even a little. No one even sees my junk. It's kind of win win for everyone.

[(Anonymous)]

NA

Also bisexual cis woman here.
In my case there is a very easy explanation for me. Men are "taught" by society to sexualize female bodies way more than women sexualize the male body. Therefore there are panty raids, slut droppings and catcalling and all that wonderful sexual harassment.

I have never in my entire life been catcalled, groped or called "a little slut" by women, gay or not.
But I had most of these experiences with men and therefore I can expose myself in front of other women no prob but get extremely afraid when having to change in front of men.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with sexual attraction per se, but with the fear of getting demonized and sexually objectified just for having a pair of tits.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't be comfortable sharing a locker room with a bunch of guys, but would have no problem sharing a locker room with women who are attracted to women. I am not sure why. Maybe it's an assumption of behavior thing? I know that in college, I lived for two years on floors with males and females, and two years on female-only floors, and the female-only floors had about 90% less drunken, smoke-filled (in smoke-free dorm, RAGE) parties.

[maverickz3r0]

There was no out gay guys at my school, but I'm sure as hell if their was, the other guys would be giving him a hard time.

Yes. Very much so. One of the main reasons I hated gym class in high school. It would've been worse with a larger class at a public school, I know. So much worse.

[(Anonymous)]

It's purely cultural. Check any country with a mixed sauna culture, and they have virtually no issue with nonsexual nudity in front of other people. We're trained to feel uncomfortable with nude bodies from a young age, and it just kind of sticks.

When first using communal showers or changing rooms, people have to work through their hangups of seeing people of their own gender in the nude, the same process would be required to get used to a mixed setting. But society tells us the former is a silly hangup and the latter is valid, so it persists.

[(Anonymous)]

they aren't men. so you aren't sharing a changing room with men. and please imagine how the trans* person would feel in that situation, you think they aren't uncomfortable or feeling unsafe?

[(Anonymous)]

I personally, do not feel anymore uncomfortable around a man than I would a women.
However, I respect that anyone, regardless of gender, has the right to safe space when changing or what-not. Women who are uncomfortable changing around men, and men who are uncomfortable changing around women, already have society enforcing a system that supports offers the safety they need.

But, I ask everyone, what of women who feel unsafe around other women? One of my dear friends was raped by her ex-girlfriend, and she feels very uncomfortable around women especially with changing. It's limited her from a lot of activities (she doesn't feel comfortable joining a gym, or joining to a water park with us, etc.). Shouldn't she deserve some kind of safe space too? (Same for men who are uncomfortable around other men?).

[(Anonymous)]

You lack complete common sense.

[(Anonymous)]

Can you at least explain why you have a problem with what I have said? I don't understand this response. I said my friend was raped. You say I lack common sense. The only thing I can rather from my response is that you find absurdity in the rape of my friend; if that is so, you are cruel and vile excuse of a human being.

[sockpants]

I don't see how the above anon lacks common sense.

Some women are uncomfortable around other women. Some men are uncomfortable around women. Believe it or not, women do commit sexual assault.

I have a very dear friend who was molested at age five by a female babysitter. He is extremely uncomfortable around women he doesn't know well. His wife was sexually assaulted by a female teacher when she was in middle school. She is, to this day, very frightened of other women, with the exception of a very few individuals.

Would you vilify them for their experience? I don't understand what you're getting at with your comment to the above anon.

[(Anonymous)]

Except transwomen are, in fact, women. And honestly, how often do you get a look at someone's genitals in a women's bathroom? I highly doubt any pre-op transwomen are going to be barging into bathrooms and waving their junk in other women's faces. They just want to be able to use the restroom assigned to their gender (or, if they're lucky, gender neutral restrooms) in peace. There is a hell of a lot of risk to transwomen forced to use men's restrooms, especially in any place where the men using said bathrooms aren't openminded or accepting of trans people.

[(Anonymous)]

When I was in graduate school, my department had some grad student offices on the same floor as the department of Gender and Women's Studies. The women's room on that floor was converted into a unisex/no gender specified restroom. This is a good thing. I was kind of bitter that it wasn't the men's room, but I figured it was no problem, because yeah, there are stalls and you don't see anything anyway.

I got incredibly uncomfortable when I realized someone in the next stall was urinating standing up. I do not know why. I don't know what their gender was -- unisex bathroom, could have been anything. Hell, that doesn't even say anything for sure about their physiology. But I felt uncomfortable and embarrassed and stayed in the stall until they were gone.

I kept using that bathroom, though, until... Well, judging from the sign that went up, the GWS people were trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and requesting that whatever people's "personal elimination style", they clean up after themselves. I'm not sure what to make of the idea of a "personal elimination style", but I really hope that was it, because the other logical explanation is someone was vandalizing the only restroom specifically designated as unisex. Anyway, I got grossed out, chickened out, and started going one floor down.

If this story has a moral, it is that people get weird about semi-public nudity and who is allowed to be near them; that everyone deserves a place to pee where they don't have to worry about being judged; that turning one restroom per building unisex wouldn't kill anyone, because visiting another floor is mildly annoying but having to trek across campus is just ridiculous; and that the world can always find a new and different way of horrifying you.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS.

[(Anonymous)]

If a trans-woman is pre-op but otherwise fully presenting as a woman, which changing room should she use? She can't very well walk into the men's room. Best case scenario, she's just assumed to be a cis-woman and gets kicked out for being in the wrong room. Worst case scenario... well, it could get very bad.

[(Anonymous)]

If she is fully presenting as a woman, I don't think there would be a problem.....?

However if she is presenting as a man, YES there would be a problem of her going into female bathroom.

Fucking people, use your common sense.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I think this issue is a little more complicated than people want to make it. I think trans women are women, whether they're pre or post-op. But I also recognize that women being told to ignore their own discomfort or fear and concede to the comfort of the person they register as male is also a sexism issue (even if in this case there's no man actually involved).

Years ago I went to a gym where someone I assumed was a trans woman used the ladies' dressing room. I didn't know her, but assumed from her appearance and presence in the ladies' locker room that she was a trans woman. I never complained about sharing the room or thought she didn't have a right to be there. But if I happened to run into her when I stepped out of the shower I did have a moment of "guy in the ladies room!" before correcting myself.

[truxillogical]

So not the point, but...aren't most pre-op transfolk looking to get the operation usually required to live as a year in the gender they're getting the op for? Because if that's the case, I swear that Dear Abby or Anne Landers or one of them said that it includes bathrooms too.

Also...appropriating "womanhood." Wowzers.

[(Anonymous)]

I believe the current Radfem line is also that Transwomen are men who "failed" at masculinity, hence them trying to "appropriate womanhood". I just cannot even with those people.