fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2161 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2161 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

you're not alone thinking that. I'm Jewish Orthodox, and I just don't bring it up because I don't want to deal with all the flack.
And yeah, I also dress modestly, and don't tell me that I'm oppressed or whatever or how awful it is.

So when Judaism comes up, I just steer clear and don't even look, because why get myself upset for no reason?

You see, anon, the problem with some of orthodox believers is that they don't only dress modestly themselves, they want everyone around them to follow their example.

While you don't feel yourself opressed, somebody who lives in an orthodox environment and don't really appreciate all the religious things might be.

Not saying that being orthodox is bad or that you're bad or whatever.

yeah but see, most people who have some sort of moral ideal believe that others should follow those morals. Frankly, in a world where we have Shariya law, I don't think that some Orthodox Jews side-eying people for dressing immodestly is really a huge threat to society or anything.

By the way, part of living in a certain cultural environment involves respecting the people around you (I know, this isn't in vogue nowadays, but still). When I lived in East Asia, I bowed to people, even though I personally hate it. So if a person wants to dress immodestly - they're welcome to, but I think that a certain amount of taking others' feelings into account when they're in a space that specifically belongs to the community is just basic respect.

Either way that's not here nor there, because you're being reasonable about it, and not one of the shrieking haters. (which I really appreciate, by the way).

da

Like women keeping their shoulders covered when visiting cathedrals in Italy. "When in Rome," quite literally.

Different anon here.

I think there's a difference between respecting cultural norms, and agreeing with them as moral codes, or refraining from critiquing them from a moral point of view. That someone should bear in mind insofar as possible the mores of the people around them as a matter of politeness and respect is true, but it doesn't make those mores correct or justify the moral code or its extension to people outside the group which believes in it. So it's certainly reasonable as a matter of respect that people should dress modestly amongst people who encourage dressing modestly, but that doesn't justify the extension of the moral commandment to dress modestly to all people.

I also think that pointing out that another group is worse is not really a defense of your own moral code. I mean, the fact that Sharia law is terrible and Orthodox Judaic customs are not too harmful doesn't mean that Orthodox Judaic customs are correct. But, it's true, it's not too big a deal. I think that the broader question here - regarding morality and religion and how we justify our morality - is probably one that's too broad for this comment thread. Deep waters there. So probably best to leave it at that.

I agree with you that comparison is not always the way to go. I more meant that sometimes the way you see people tarring and feathering when it comes to Judaism, you'd think we were talking about something absolutely horrendous.

I'll also leave one more comment - Orthodox Judaism is basically regarding itself. It's not a missionary religion, and by and large doesn't actually demand that others live by that moral code.

I agree to leave the broader questions of morality aside, though.

For my own part, I don't take issue with how you dress (as long as it's something you freely choose), but with the phrasing. By saying you dress "modestly," your words imply that women who don't dress the way you do are being "immodest." That's passing judgment on other people, even if it's done passively. My clothing choices probably aren't as conservative as yours, but there's nothing "immodest" about the way I dress. So that would be my only complaint. Dress how you like, but don't imply that doing so makes you better (or more "modest") than anyone else.

see, though, that's not actually true. The concept of modesty is an extremely complex one, and also to a certain extent, dependent on the situation. Furthermore, modesty is also a behavioral thing, not just clothing. There is a spectrum. Saying that I dress modestly does not actually make a value judgement on how you are dressing. I didn't conflate more modest with being "better" at any point.

Though, frankly, since most Western society doesn't value modesty in clothing much at all, I fail to see why this value judgement (had it occurred) would bother you in the first place.

since most Western society doesn't value modesty in clothing much at all

I don't know where you got that idea. Women in Western society are constantly judged and called all sorts of misogynistic things for their clothing choices -- or even body types, since to some people, simply possessing large breasts makes a woman look "immodest." There's a huge culture of victim-blaming surrounding rape and sexual assault in the West; one of the first things that's brought up is what the victim was wearing.

If modesty is "a behavioral thing" as you say (which I agree with), then saying you dress "modestly" seems off. You don't personally have to say anything that conflates modesty with positive value, since that's already built into the meaning of the word. Do you disagree that saying someone is "modest" is positive, and saying they're "immodest" is negative?

SA

actually, I'll add - there are plenty of people who dress more modestly than I do. I am completely unbothered by this, because I feel that I'm quite secure with my state of modesty. Them being more modest doesn't make me immodest. So I really don't see what your issue is.

My issue is that dressing conservatively != being modest. People who dress more conservatively than you aren't necessarily more modest than you, and people who dress less conservatively than you aren't necessarily less modest than you. Because there is a value judgment inherent in the word "modesty."

being immodest is not an insult. and being immodest is a thing people can be, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with differentiating between modest dress and otherwise.

[ SECRET POST #2161 ]

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