[ SECRET POST #2161 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2161 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 098 secrets from Secret Submission Post #309.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Why is it that on this comm, I get the feeling that "Oh, being Jewish is totally okay", but anything to do with the beliefs of Judaism is not. I'm not just talking about yesterday's Koshergate, where the OP did not say that say that kosher slaughtering was was the *most* humane, just that it was humane. I'm talking about how if someone talks about having intermarriage issues, they're a terrible person. If they talk about ritual modesty (in dressing) for women, that's a terrible practice. If they mention that Judaism is traditionally passed through the mother, they're absolutely wrong.

I won't even bring up the "Jews are Israel so they're all murderous sons of bitches."

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

In this community, the "ritual modesty" issue is criticized in all religions that call for it, I think.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Wait, link for yesterday? Was it in the gen comments?

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[ill_omened]

Smoking thread.

Someone took tremendous umbrage that they might not be right, and how dur you criticise their choices even though it has moral dimensions.

An anon challenged this.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

It was at the start of the comment for secret 3.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Judaism isn't an excuse for anything, though. I mean, if people find aspects of Jewish practice problematic, I don't think you get a free pass. There are things that are elements of Islamic and Christian practice that people will object to - we don't give ritual stonings a free pass because it's a practice that's based in fundamentalist Islamic religious practices. Homophobia doesn't become acceptable when it's grounded in evangelical Christian faith. There's a balancing act here, I think, certainly, in terms of faith and behavior, and the balance between religion and morality is a tricky one and it's a complex topic. But I don't think there's anything specific about the Jewish religion that's motivating these criticisms - the same thing happens with most religions - and I think, you know, if people disagree with practices and think they're immoral, it's valid to think that, and saying that it's an element of faith is not really a defense.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Pretty much this. I don't think that the dislike of any religious practises and/or dogmas has anything to do with the dislike of the religion itself, not on f!s anyway.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[diet_poison]

This.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

I've never noticed that with this community, though I do tend to avoid the wankier threads so I think I miss a lot of the not cool parts of the comm.

Although I don't know about slaughtering being humane. Slaughtering, by its very nature, is not characterized by kindness or compassion in my eyes.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

"Although I don't know about slaughtering being humane. Slaughtering, by its very nature, is not characterized by kindness or compassion in my eyes."

Just putting myself in as another person who agrees with this statement.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

It's necessary if you have to eat if you happen to be an omnivore (which human beings are and I have never been convinced otherwise)

Also, I take the animistic approach to the world and I think everything has a soul to some extent, so eating plants isn't really any more humane than eating animals to me

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

I think slaughtering can be... more or less inhumane, and most people mean "less inhumane" when they say "humane".

...Actually my dictionary tells me that one of the meanings of "humane" is "inflicting a minimum of pain", so I guess some slaughtering methods could qualify under that?

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[inkdust]

Yeah, I think humane is generally used to refer to something that isn't really the nicest thing to do, but it's being done in the nicest way possible.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

you're not alone thinking that. I'm Jewish Orthodox, and I just don't bring it up because I don't want to deal with all the flack.
And yeah, I also dress modestly, and don't tell me that I'm oppressed or whatever or how awful it is.

So when Judaism comes up, I just steer clear and don't even look, because why get myself upset for no reason?

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

You see, anon, the problem with some of orthodox believers is that they don't only dress modestly themselves, they want everyone around them to follow their example.

While you don't feel yourself opressed, somebody who lives in an orthodox environment and don't really appreciate all the religious things might be.

Not saying that being orthodox is bad or that you're bad or whatever.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

yeah but see, most people who have some sort of moral ideal believe that others should follow those morals. Frankly, in a world where we have Shariya law, I don't think that some Orthodox Jews side-eying people for dressing immodestly is really a huge threat to society or anything.

By the way, part of living in a certain cultural environment involves respecting the people around you (I know, this isn't in vogue nowadays, but still). When I lived in East Asia, I bowed to people, even though I personally hate it. So if a person wants to dress immodestly - they're welcome to, but I think that a certain amount of taking others' feelings into account when they're in a space that specifically belongs to the community is just basic respect.

Either way that's not here nor there, because you're being reasonable about it, and not one of the shrieking haters. (which I really appreciate, by the way).

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

For my own part, I don't take issue with how you dress (as long as it's something you freely choose), but with the phrasing. By saying you dress "modestly," your words imply that women who don't dress the way you do are being "immodest." That's passing judgment on other people, even if it's done passively. My clothing choices probably aren't as conservative as yours, but there's nothing "immodest" about the way I dress. So that would be my only complaint. Dress how you like, but don't imply that doing so makes you better (or more "modest") than anyone else.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

see, though, that's not actually true. The concept of modesty is an extremely complex one, and also to a certain extent, dependent on the situation. Furthermore, modesty is also a behavioral thing, not just clothing. There is a spectrum. Saying that I dress modestly does not actually make a value judgement on how you are dressing. I didn't conflate more modest with being "better" at any point.

Though, frankly, since most Western society doesn't value modesty in clothing much at all, I fail to see why this value judgement (had it occurred) would bother you in the first place.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Hm. A month or so ago there was a thread about Judaism wasn't there? I think an anon posted a secret about not marrying out of the faith, or something like that?

Personally I think it's more of a "everything has to be debated" here type of thing then outright hate.

Personally I have been told quite a number of times that I'm not Jewish since my father is the one of Jewish decent and not my mother. I tend to agree with this simply because, well...his family is mostly from Russia. There's also a lot of gray/blue eyes in the family, which leads me to believe they did have children out of the faith quite a number of times. My paternal grandparents are first cousins, however. I don't know if that was a religious thing or not, but I suppose it's all very confusing. So, technically I just call myself half Russian in public, with a Jewish surname.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know, I grew up around a lot of Jewish people who don't even follow those practices, so those sorts of debates only ever came up rarely. We did have a Orthodox Jewish community but they largely segregated themselves from the rest of the Jewish community.

But I think most religions have some ridiculous practices that need to be ditched, for some people that means taking that certain practice out of the religion, for me it means not following religion at all whatsoever. These are just my personal morals, but if I'm not good with the rules of something, I'm not following it.

But these sort of critiques always come up with and practices people don't agree with, it can sometimes be hard to have a dividing line between being respectful of someone's religion and seeing something that religion is doing as wrong. After all if someone came up to your door and said, "I get to kill you because of my faith." you would probably have some objections. And while you may say to yourself, "Yeah but that's an extreme example." remember that historically it's really not all that extreme. We NEED to question our religious practices for fear of giving a corrupt institution too much power.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Because those beliefs and values are conservative ideals. That they're wrapped up in faith (even a faith as discriminated against as Judaism) doesn't take away from the fact that a lot of them strike people as old-timey, sexist, racist/"blood purity"-ist, etc.

Most of the practices and traditions of Judaism are very similar to the ones found in Islam and Christianity. Most people acknowledge that Islam and Christian faith can both be incredibly sexist and homophobic, and are often used to justify all kinds of other bigotry and atrocities. Judaism isn't exempt from the same criticism.

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

Are you new? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

tl;dr Being Jewish is okay, people are still going to discuss the specific bits they do not accept. Some people are going to be very against the aspects you mentioned for their own reasons and that is ok. Open forums get to discuss and argue over practices of X religion. It's not just Jews either, so you're going to have to get over it.

For me.
I am very against kosher slaughtering. I missed koshergate, but I would disagree with the OP
I sympathise with intermarriage issues. Good luck with that (or for others)
Ritual modesty, as long as it is up to the woman, is their business. If the woman has decided to dress modestly, it's up to them. If they don't want to dress modestly? It's up to them. Both styles of dress have a history of male pressure, but I would hope that the woman would get to choose in the end.
Maternal lines of inheritance? Well, it's different from the usual. I don't really care.

The most annoying part is your strawman exaggerations ;) I can't take you seriously when you do that, you're trying to set the argument up in your favour so you can point and go "you're all just horrible argumentative trolls" /strawmans away!

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[diet_poison]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up circumcision.

I almost hesitate to mention it, since I don't want to be a Harbinger Of Wank especially since I'm going to bed soon and will miss it all but otoh I don't think I should keep quiet on something that is important to me just because it might annoy others. I agree with you about kosher slaughtering, and one of my biggest bones with this issue is the idea that people should be allowed to inflict genital mutilation on their children just because it's part of their religion.

This isn't about Judaism. I hold other religions to the same standards. I'm a Christian and it annoys the hell out of me when other Christians speak against marriage equality. Just because you're a Christian and believe gay = wrong (which is not my view, fwiw) doesn't give you the right to inflict that on other people.

tl;dr I totally agree - ethical concerns should be evaluated individually, regardless of their connection to religion or lack thereof, and religion is not an excuse for hurting someone else

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[al28894]

*Silently watches thread to gain insight and perspective about Judaisam, morality, and other things in general. The fact that there has been an increase in Jewish hate in the country recently and all the facts about it are heavily biased might be a factor*

Re: The J-Word (A Thread That Shall Explode in Wank, Just Watch)

[(Anonymous)]

:(

*hug*