[ SECRET POST #2216 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2216 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 120 secrets from Secret Submission Post #317.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

14. http://i.imgur.com/yALZrSn.jpg

[fauxkaren]

I think the Messianic imagery generally works for me too in Doctor Who.

A lot of it is kind of a deconstruction of sorts? Like in series 3 the Doctor has his resurrection moment and forgives the Master... but it doesn't matter. The Master refuses his forgiveness and chooses to die.

And then in Voyage of the Damned, the Doctor has that Jesus moment, but Astrid still dies and Mr. Cooper makes the point later that if he COULD choose who lived and who died, that'd make him a monster.

[(Anonymous)]

Huh. It always makes me curious to see how vastly differently New and Old Who fans interpret things. (The Doctor is...very, very, very much not a Jesus figure in Old Who. In fact, he very closely fits the trickster archetype.)

Then again, when you view it from a different angle, i.e., the Doctor turning into this Jesus-y figure that he's very poorly suited for after the war and after the death of all the other time lords, it IS a pretty damn interesting arc.

[fauxkaren]

I think that reboot of the series and the Time War allowed for a very different interpretation of the character. After the Time War, the Doctor is the only Time Lord left and I think that puts him in a very different position than he was in during Classic Who which is what allows for the more Messianic imagery and I think that as an atheist, RTD was very interested in exploring and somewhat deconstructing that idea.

I don't really know what Moffat is trying to do with it though. Moffat seems like he is playing The Lonely (and sometimes childish) God angle pretty straight.

[(Anonymous)]

Moffat seems like he is playing The Lonely (and sometimes childish) God angle pretty straight.

O.o

Please, please, PLEASE tell me you're joking. There's a lot I dislike about Moffat, but part of what I dislike is that he kinda wasted the entirety of season six (and part of season seven) repeatedly, savagely demolishing and trampling all over the Lonely God concept until everyone was yelling "OKAY OKAY FFS WE GET IT THE DOCTOR SHOULDN'T BE GOD THANK YOU FOR POINTING THIS OUT TO US FIFTY BAZILLION TIMES CAN WE HAVE FUN STORIES AGAIN????" instead of quietly moving away from the concept.

[fauxkaren]

... I disagree. I don't the show has every outright criticized Eleven for his actions and it lets him get away with acting like a god. Like he's a BAD god, but it's not critiquing the idea of him as a god, if that makes sense.

[(Anonymous)]

I...I....what...how...what...I...but...but...WHAT. Never criticized...WHAT. Lets him get away with...WHATWHATWHAT.

Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to give up here. I don't think I know how to respond to someone who apparently has been watching a completely different show from me. Or has a different definition of what "criticize" means. Maybe someone with more energy who has actually had this argument before can do it.

[(Anonymous)]

The way you write makes you look like a complete tool.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

*shrugs* well, you know, sometimes it's better not to get into conversations with people who see things fundamentally differently from how you do. You avoid a lot of wank and flaming that way.

[(Anonymous)]

Bwuh?

The entire point of The Beast Below is that the hard choices are not actually all on his shoulders.

The whole point of Amy's Choice is that he can't save everyone and his dark side is really freaky.

The entire point of The Pandorica Opens was that bad things happen to people with too much power and cause too much fear by flaunting it, and that he has to take personal responsibility for fixing the mess he accidentally caused.

The entire point of A Christmas Carol is that he can't screw around with time and expect it to work out the way he wants it to.

The entire point of The Impossible Astronaut is that he can't fight fate.

The entire point of A Good Man Goes to War (and the focal point of season 6 in general) was the same thing as the Pandorica Opens, with the addition that his actions had some really awful consequences for the people he loves, which is a hell of a lot worse for him than consequences for just himself.

The point of Lets Kill Hitler is that he depends on others a whole hell of a lot for a whole lot of things.

The entire point of The Girl Who Waited is that he can't save everyone or do things perfectly or pull solutions out of his ass.

The entire point of The God Complex is that...he has a god complex that he's fated to never satisfy because, again, he can't save everyone, and him confessing to Amy that she shouldn't have unwavering faith in him because he's a fallible, stupid old man, not a god or a superhero.

The entire point of The Wedding of River Song is him begging River NOT to play god.

The entire point of Asylum of the Daleks is that operating quietly and not being famous would be a big plus in his column.

The entire point of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and A Town Called Mercy is that he can't handle his saving-the-universe role alone and goes bugfuck insane and loses his soul when separated from his companions too long.

The entire point of The Angels Take Manhattan is that he can't fight fate.

Honestly, my biggest issue with Moffat is that "The Pandorica Opens" was a more than sufficient kick in the nuts for the Doctor, and he didn't need all the subsequent bullshit because it was all repeating the same damn stuff that season 5 did better. However, while I generally prefer RTD to Moffat for a host of reasons (most prominently, because even RTD's most irritating season 4 excesses were never as wall-bangingly awful as Moffat's season 6 excesses), one thing I do like is that Moffat employs "show don't tell" more often instead of having to spell everything out.

[fenm]

and he didn't need all the subsequent bullshit because it was all repeating the same damn stuff that season 5 did better.

THIS.

One of the reasons I don't buy Doctor/River as a real, healthy relationship is because it seems like at least half her dialogue with him is her telling him what an arrogant, irresponsible jagoff he is... Yes, thanks, Moffat, we got the point the first five times.

[intrigueing]

I was about to say this exact thing. (Not criticizing him? WHAT? That's like saying Ten got over his Time War angst in season 4...) Dammit, you beat me to it.

The fact that season 5 seemed to have been COMPLETELY IGNORED is my biggest problem with Moffat, because season 5, despite its uneven quality, was basically everything I ever wanted and was a great lead-out from the really fascinating subject matter of the RTD era and lead-in to the possibility of a show with the Doctor having adventures and saving people in a more (but not completely) classic Who-type way. Especially how it was all about the Doctor taking care of Amy and Rory, not the other way around, showing that he had gotten over/was in the process of getting over a lot of his personal issues and trying to become a mentor-ish figure again...and then season six basically went "NOPE" and went into fucking reverse. *headdesk*

The Doctor/River thing especially irks me since I really, really, really, really liked them in season 4 and 5, when she was just an awesome mad lady who'd pop out of nowhere and cheerfully deflate his self-importance by trolling the fuck out of him and vanish again while never being mystified by him because she knew all about him already. It was so...I dunno, appropriate?

[(Anonymous)]

NA who's one of the brand new Who fans around here...

Now I'm starting to understand why people hated series 6 so much (and the River/Doctor relationship) - I can't say I disagree because I understand your points now that they're laid out along with the anon who made the post about all the lessons of the episodes. I don't know why it didn't bother me as much when I watched it (or why it still doesn't even now) I guess I was able to watch series 6 on it's own without thinking about the fact that many of the same lessons were already had in series 5? Or maybe I'm too good at ignoring the deeper issues with certain shows if I'm having enough fun with it otherwise.

[intrigueing]

Hey, if you can appreciate season 6 on its own merits, more power to you! It's certainly not all bad, and I can see how a lot of fun can be had with it. It's just that I unfortunately couldn't enjoy it because so many things niggled at me.

And I relate to you: when I was first getting into DW back in 2008/9, I watched the episodes all out of order, and therefore totally missed a lot of the problems with season 4 because I enjoyed the episodes individually and didn't really connect it in my mind to the arcs of season 2-3 and didn't really care to. It's just a TV show after all, it's for having fun! And they still don't bother me all that much, even though I intellectually notice a lot more problems now, because I remember enjoying them the first time I saw them. Nothing wrong with being able to enjoy things on one level. In fact, I'd say it's a good thing. :)

[othellia]

The Doctor/River thing especially irks me since I really, really, really, really liked them in season 4 and 5, when she was just an awesome mad lady who'd pop out of nowhere and cheerfully deflate his self-importance by trolling the fuck out of him and vanish again while never being mystified by him because she knew all about him already.

I know we already got into a long conversation about all of this about a month ago, but YES, YES. ALL OF THIS.

+100000000000000000

[(Anonymous)]

All of this. I have no idea what show fauxkaren is watching, but it sure hasn't got the faintest connection to anything that transpired in reality.

Not that I thought Moffat's era was all that great - well, I did really like season 5 and season 7 seems to be maybe starting to look up, but season 6 had so many wrong turns. However, "not criticizing the Doctor when he acts like God" sure as fuck ain't one of its flaws.

If anything, it has the exact opposite flaw: "criticizing the Doctor for acting like God over and over and over again even though everyone already got the memo way back in The Pandorica Opens, by arbitrarily manipulating completely run-of-the-mill standard situations into worst-case-scenarios for no logical reason and dicking around with his companions' storylines just for the sake of screwing him over for the 900th time."

It smacks of RTD's dickery in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, to be honest. "Oh noes, I don't care that this story sucks balls and is infuriating to people who actually care about the characters, I want to pile more shit on the Doctor because damned if I'm going to let his personality develop quietly!"

[kittenmommy]

(The Doctor is...very, very, very much not a Jesus figure in Old Who. In fact, he very closely fits the trickster archetype.)

This Old Who fan totally agrees!!!

[(Anonymous)]

(The Doctor is...very, very, very much not a Jesus figure in Old Who. In fact, he very closely fits the trickster archetype.)

Yes this! He is TOTALLY a trickster. This actually reminds me I remember once seeing a list of traits typical of archetypal tricksters and the Doctor fulfills basically every one of them...that was fun :)

Not that I completely disliked ALL of the Messianic undertones in the RTD era (it was really annoying when it got OTT, but at other times it was understandable and even insightful because he was, after all, the only one left), but yes, the fact that he is really not traditionally a Christ-figure, not even a deconstructed one, is important and it's a bit frustrating that nu!Who fans don't get that his messianic characterization is a departure from his standard trickster-y characterization. I mean, I can't exactly blame them, because it's not their responsibility to watch old episodes of a show that is marketed and designed to be watchable for a totally new audience, but it's frustrating nonetheless.

I have a lot of issues with Moffat, but I do love that the Doctor went back to being trickster-ish when he regenerated into Eleven, and that when he went over the edge, it was by stumbling over the line between "trickster" and "demon" rather than "Jesus" and "insane!Jesus". (It's the execution of how that line-crossing occurred in season 6, with that ridiculously convoluted storyline and the screwing around with Amy and Rory and River's characters, that pissed me off.)

[(Anonymous)]

My problem with it was mainly that it was kind of dissonant in some places, especially when it came to the way characters reacted to him. And that it usually took a long-ass time for RTD to get around to pointing out that the Doctor wasn't very suited to it.

[sparklywalls]

Not gonna lie OP, the scene in your secret makes me cringe so hard that I can barely stand to watch it now. And I'm still not sure exactly how I feel on the "Doctor is a god-like figure" stuff. I've always just about accepted it because I guess to cultures in the universe not as advanced as his, he could seem like one.

[(Anonymous)]

Yup, I think it depends on what kind of god you're talking about. The American/Eurocentric version of god goes to Jesus or the Abrahamic God which is...not a good role for him because he's sort of crazy, but there's a lot of other possibilities. The Doctor makes for a pretty good trickster, IMO (especially Seven ;)). Or a reference to Budai (the laughing buddha, a nomad who travels around with only a sack full of his possessions, stopping along his way to help children and usually followed around by children as well) in Buddhist teachings.

[(Anonymous)]

the scene in your secret makes me cringe so hard that I can barely stand to watch it now.

Yeah, gotta agree. Ouch. Wince. Just...I see what you're saying, Russel, but such a bad choice of execution.

Still not quite as cringeworthy as the Tinkerbell Jesus from the s3 finale though :\

[nyxelestia]

Probably because the Messianic imagery in Doctor Who is usually a deconstruction or incidental to the plot.

[omaera]

That's funny; the "Jesus Ten" stuff was the thing that turned me off the most to Ten.

[maverickz3r0]

I...really like that stuff, and I'm quite fond of that special and the S3 finale both. Waters of Mars too. *shrug*

I do like that stuff normally in fact, but I really like it in Doctor Who. One of the reasons I liked Ten's run, I guess.