Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2013-03-13 06:45 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2013-03-13 06:45 pm
[ SECRET POST #2262 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2262 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
I kind of liked this element about the house elves. The idea that someone wouldn't want to be free is incredibly alien to most of Harry Potter's readers, so alien that it seems that they must be wrong.
Not to mention I'm pretty sure that house elves are actually based on brownies, and much of the mythology surrounding brownies is about how attached they are to their house or "owners".
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-14 03:15 am (UTC)(link)Why does it even come down to House Elves being right or wrong anyway? What's creepy is you've got a system that benefits wizards and really doesn't benefit House Elves (whether or not they like it that way) but all the blame's shifted onto the slaves so the slave-owners are doing them a favor by having complete power over them even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.
no subject
Ah, but that's just the thing! Your perception of what is beneficial is wrong by their standards. You are applying what is beneficial to a human to the house elves. This is what I mean by stressing human psychology over an alien kind. It's hard for people not to do.
even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.
What is beneficial to a human being? A productive 9-5 job with a loving family? Most people would consider that successful. For some people, it's utterly stifling. Does that mean we should switch to a more socialist state because the state you are in causes some people unhappiness by design?
It shouldn't; at most, it means that society should not limit itself too much into preventing people to achieve happiness elsewhere. Likewise, if the system is allowing for abuse (but the sole cause of it), that part of it should be corrected.
As far as we know, there are no laws or documents enslaving house elves, but rather that elves choose to subjugate themselves and free themselves based on spoken contract. As far as we know, they won't be hunted down if they choose to leave the service of a wizard.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-14 03:57 am (UTC)(link)No, I didn't do that. The system objectively doesn't benefit them. You're assuming that "they being owned by people and serving" is a significant benefit, but it's a dubious one even by their own standards. The part where they serve is irrelevant because they can do that without being owned. And while they may like the status of being owned, it still harms them because when they're in a situation they don't like they can't do anything to change it. They're completely dependent on the whims of Wizards--that does not benefit them whether or not they like it.
Dobby doesn't want to work for the Malfoys, but he can't leave until he gets a sock from Lucius. Kreacher doesn't want to work for Sirius or Harry but he can't leave. When Winky gets dismissed she loses everything. All these things show House elves hurt by the system. They just don't say it in those terms. Yet everyone's happy with the justification that House Elves like being owned so they have to keep the status quo.
The House Elves' mindset isn't all that hard to wrap a human mind around. The problem isn't that readers just can't really believe House Elves don't want to be freed.
no subject
I don't know if we're really disagreeing here.
I am objecting to the idea that a species that only desires to serve (or be a slave, if you prefer) is wrong somehow. They're not human, and as far as we know they have no human parallels, unlike that extremely racist alien species from that manga from yesterday. They're based on brownies, so it's not even that Rowling herself came up with the concept.
I agree that more could be done to protect house elves. It's apparent that a House Elf, once freed, does not need to be compelled to work, and does not necessarily consider themselves the slaves of the house that takes them in next.
What's not apparent is the nature of the slavery. Once freed, are elves unable to bind themselves to other wizards or households? Do they do so with permission from the wizard only? How does it come about that they choose or find a family or person? Exactly what is the nature of their need to obey? Is it a spell cast over them, or something inherent in their nature?
An obvious compromise is that all wizards must free their elves, who can stay on if they choose, but that might not work if an elf immediately considers themselves a slave if they want to be a slave, and remains compelled.
So, basically, I do not agree with OP that the concept itself is the issue. It is the ambivalence of their situation that might be the issue.
no subject
Should humans be deciding for them what they want?? How is that any better?
even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.
Most of the house-elves we see in the books were quite happy. The vast majority, in fact. The people who are assholes to their elves are also assholes to everyone. Dobby was upset because Lucius was a dick to him. Winky was...upset because she was freed...hmm...Kreacher was upset because he had to serve Harry and Sirius which went against his loyalty to the dark, pureblood wizards. Only one of those was actually upset about being enslaved.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-15 12:39 am (UTC)(link)The point is, there are two sides to this: Wizards and House Elves. Everyone focuses on what House Elves should or shouldn't want as if House Elves' desires control human behavior. Or as if House Elves wanting to be slaves makes it not terrible to have complete control over another person (which House Elves are, whether or not they're human). Wizards need look at the problems with their own position.
Most of the house-elves we see in the books were quite happy. The vast majority, in fact.
Most elves being happy doesn't really justify them having no power to help themselves when they're not. The issue isn't people being assholes to elves, it's elves being completely dependent on the whims of wizards (who are often also assholes). Winky's master had no responsibility to her whatsoever. He didn't need or want her anymore, so she was disgraced and abandoned and that was fine. Kreacher was forced to be a slave to people he didn't want to own him, so that's a straightforward case of slavery not protecting elves.
Wizards have never felt the need to limit their power through laws or charms or whatever. They leave it up to the elves.
no subject
Why wouldn't we focus on what the house elves want? It's like another part of the thread where someone brought up white man's burden. To say that wizards should apply their higher morality to other creatures is a bit like that, to me. I'm not saying that complete slavery is the right option - I'm saying that it bears thinking about that the human perspective is not only not the only one that matters, but it matters less than the house-elf perspective because it is their welfare we're talking about. They're not children.
I'm also not saying the system was perfect. In fact I think it was intentionally portrayed as negative at times. They should be given the choice - but to some even suggesting freedom or payment is frightening and/or dishonoring, I think. I think it depends on the elf. And I don't think Winky's situation was supposed to be seen in a positive light (or Kreacher's for that matter - but I don't think Harry particularly *wanted* to own him anymore than he wanted Harry to own him, he just wanted to serve his precious Dark family, and maybe Harry thought it would be worse if he freed him based on what he saw with Winky and felt some responsibility for him, but I think honestly Kreacher was low on Harry's priority list, which you can argue is a problem with Harry's priorities).
I'm not sure what your last sentence is supposed to mean.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-15 03:51 pm (UTC)(link)Why wouldn't we focus on what the house elves want?
Because by doing that (almost always exclusively) it's ignoring the question of whether it's right for wizards to take advantage of House Elves and their natures. It gets turned into something wizards do *for* House Elves, as if elves saying they want to be owned justifies a relationship that's inherently abusive. House Elves are willing to blame themselves for abuse that can and does happen and wizards see no reason to search for ways to limit their own power over elves. It's not oppressing elves for Wizards to say okay, you can have your subservient relationship and bonds to particular people, but here's a whole bunch of laws we Wizards have to follow about it and here's also help you're legally entitled to if you should need it. I don't think it's an insulting compromise to say Elves are going to have rights even if they don't want them.
But wizards don't do that--that's what I meant by saying they leave it up to the elves. As long as the elves aren't formally organizing to complain wizards are happy with elves having no rights too. And that's on them. They don't keep elves because they're doing them a favor. Harry might be a nice enough guy to not want to punish Kreacher by freeing him, but he's also not going to let Kreacher choose and so transfer ownership of him to Bellatrix for obvious reasons. Or not force him to do things that when he really wants something done.
Maybe another analogy that's not perfect for House Elves isn't so much slaves as women. There have been plenty of times and places where women were under the authority of male family members. Many women did and still do consider it proper that they should depend on the whims of men for their own protection instead of having rights of their own. Women who "failed" by being abused or abandoned were ignored in favor of the lucky ones. But whatever men claimed about this being a responsibility for them to take care of women, they actually just enjoyed having all the rights.
no subject
Regulating the relationship between the wizards and the house-elves is a very good idea. I never said it wasn't. I just don't think the wizards should be speaking OVER the house-elves when these matters are brought up for action and revision.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-15 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
In a perfect world, the Ministry would have some laws/a council/something pertaining to the organization and status of house-elves, and some elves would speak to the council about their needs, and everyone would be happy and everything would be hunky dory.
One thing I think we could all get behind? Laws that makes abuse of elves (a la Malfoy) illegal and heavily disciplined against.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-03-21 11:42 am (UTC)(link)also, none of the house elves featured prominently in the series enjoy their position.
also remember that when you're a house elf, YOU CAN'T FUCKING LEAVE. you can't say "hey actually i'm different, i don't want to be a slave" you literally cannot freely do that. if you don't see the problem there, well... ? _ ?