fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2262 ]

[ SECRET POST #2262 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2262 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #323.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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But the way the universe of the books is constructed, house-elf slavery is basically right.

Don't blame the fans because JKR created a race of beings that want to be enslaved.

Precisely. We must not think of house elves as humans and afford them human wants. This is arrogance. They are inhuman, and have inhuman thoughts.

The house elves know their station. The house elves want their station. And it is our duty to provide them with said station. To allow them to do what the do best for the betterment of their race and ours.

Why do I get the feeling this is from a 19th-century pro-slavery tract with some words changed?

Edited 2013-03-14 00:50 (UTC)

I am curious, did you quote any one 19th century pro-slavery piece in particular, or was that just a general paraphrasing of that kind of thought process? The words sound familiar, and I'm not sure if it's because I've just read it in my history class, or because I've read a lot of them over the years and they all sound the same.

The latter. We probably read a lot of the same ones.

(no subject)

nyxelestia - 2013-03-14 06:59 (UTC) - Expand

But since they're not human, I don't see anything wrong with that. They're a completely fictitious race that don't even resemble humans like the asari from Mass Effect do. You can't equate them with human oppression unless there's actually some resemblance behind it.

I kind of liked this element about the house elves. The idea that someone wouldn't want to be free is incredibly alien to most of Harry Potter's readers, so alien that it seems that they must be wrong.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure that house elves are actually based on brownies, and much of the mythology surrounding brownies is about how attached they are to their house or "owners".

Edited 2013-03-13 23:08 (UTC)

I kind of liked this element about the house elves. The idea that someone wouldn't want to be free is incredibly alien to most of Harry Potter's readers, so alien that it seems that they must be wrong.

Why does it even come down to House Elves being right or wrong anyway? What's creepy is you've got a system that benefits wizards and really doesn't benefit House Elves (whether or not they like it that way) but all the blame's shifted onto the slaves so the slave-owners are doing them a favor by having complete power over them even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.

hat's creepy is you've got a system that benefits wizards and really doesn't benefit House Elves

Ah, but that's just the thing! Your perception of what is beneficial is wrong by their standards. You are applying what is beneficial to a human to the house elves. This is what I mean by stressing human psychology over an alien kind. It's hard for people not to do.

even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.

What is beneficial to a human being? A productive 9-5 job with a loving family? Most people would consider that successful. For some people, it's utterly stifling. Does that mean we should switch to a more socialist state because the state you are in causes some people unhappiness by design?

It shouldn't; at most, it means that society should not limit itself too much into preventing people to achieve happiness elsewhere. Likewise, if the system is allowing for abuse (but the sole cause of it), that part of it should be corrected.

As far as we know, there are no laws or documents enslaving house elves, but rather that elves choose to subjugate themselves and free themselves based on spoken contract. As far as we know, they won't be hunted down if they choose to leave the service of a wizard.

Ah, but that's just the thing! Your perception of what is beneficial is wrong by their standards. You are applying what is beneficial to a human to the house elves. This is what I mean by stressing human psychology over an alien kind. It's hard for people not to do.

No, I didn't do that. The system objectively doesn't benefit them. You're assuming that "they being owned by people and serving" is a significant benefit, but it's a dubious one even by their own standards. The part where they serve is irrelevant because they can do that without being owned. And while they may like the status of being owned, it still harms them because when they're in a situation they don't like they can't do anything to change it. They're completely dependent on the whims of Wizards--that does not benefit them whether or not they like it.

Dobby doesn't want to work for the Malfoys, but he can't leave until he gets a sock from Lucius. Kreacher doesn't want to work for Sirius or Harry but he can't leave. When Winky gets dismissed she loses everything. All these things show House elves hurt by the system. They just don't say it in those terms. Yet everyone's happy with the justification that House Elves like being owned so they have to keep the status quo.

The House Elves' mindset isn't all that hard to wrap a human mind around. The problem isn't that readers just can't really believe House Elves don't want to be freed.

(no subject)

sugar_spun - 2013-03-14 04:27 (UTC) - Expand

Why does it even come down to House Elves being right or wrong anyway?

Should humans be deciding for them what they want?? How is that any better?

even when we see the system causing misery to House Elves.

Most of the house-elves we see in the books were quite happy. The vast majority, in fact. The people who are assholes to their elves are also assholes to everyone. Dobby was upset because Lucius was a dick to him. Winky was...upset because she was freed...hmm...Kreacher was upset because he had to serve Harry and Sirius which went against his loyalty to the dark, pureblood wizards. Only one of those was actually upset about being enslaved.

Should humans be deciding for them what they want?? How is that any better?

The point is, there are two sides to this: Wizards and House Elves. Everyone focuses on what House Elves should or shouldn't want as if House Elves' desires control human behavior. Or as if House Elves wanting to be slaves makes it not terrible to have complete control over another person (which House Elves are, whether or not they're human). Wizards need look at the problems with their own position.

Most of the house-elves we see in the books were quite happy. The vast majority, in fact.

Most elves being happy doesn't really justify them having no power to help themselves when they're not. The issue isn't people being assholes to elves, it's elves being completely dependent on the whims of wizards (who are often also assholes). Winky's master had no responsibility to her whatsoever. He didn't need or want her anymore, so she was disgraced and abandoned and that was fine. Kreacher was forced to be a slave to people he didn't want to own him, so that's a straightforward case of slavery not protecting elves.

Wizards have never felt the need to limit their power through laws or charms or whatever. They leave it up to the elves.

(no subject)

diet_poison - 2013-03-15 14:19 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2013-03-15 15:51 (UTC) - Expand

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diet_poison - 2013-03-15 17:26 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2013-03-15 22:12 (UTC) - Expand

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diet_poison - 2013-03-16 18:44 (UTC) - Expand

they're sentient, fuckwit. "human oppression" might as well be "sentient oppression" because we don't have anything to compare it with.

also, none of the house elves featured prominently in the series enjoy their position.

also remember that when you're a house elf, YOU CAN'T FUCKING LEAVE. you can't say "hey actually i'm different, i don't want to be a slave" you literally cannot freely do that. if you don't see the problem there, well... ? _ ?

that's a bit fucked up though, don't you think lol. to make a situation where slavery is good.

But uh, there's a distinction there. House Elves want to serve humans, as in, they have a drive to do household work and take care of humans and do as they're told and stuff. The slavery part, where they actually don't have a choice at all, is NOT portrayed as "right" and the House Elves who want to be enslaved aren't exactly portrayed positively in the book at all. That chapter in Goblet of Fire -- "The House Elf Liberation Front" or whatever -- makes it pretty clear that the House Elves' view of their own enslavement, and the way they treat Dobby for being free, and the way they treat Winky for being a mess, and the way Winky self-destructs when she's free, is all pretty fucked-up.

I mean, it's basically a choice between either being enslaved or not being able to take care of people (which is an essential part of their nature, so I guess it would be comparable to being deprived of sex or daylight or human interaction or something), because like Dobby said, wizards wouldn't hire House Elves when it was customary to enslave them instead.

So yeah, I would totally side-eye fans who try to justify the slavery. I mean, how do they explain Dobby? Dobby wasn't different because he was weird or deviant or something, it was because he either had enough grit and intelligence to realize that taking care of humans =/= being a slave, or was in a terrible enough situation that he decided he'd rather be free than serve the Malfoys. Which is, y'know, a good thing.

Seriously?

It's not just the wizards who won't hire house elves. All the other house-elves regard Dobby as deviant and explicitly reject any desire to be paid. That might be fucked up but it seems to be what they want insofar as they're able to say. They want to serve wizards and they don't want to be paid for it. They treat the prospect of being freed mostly as a threat. I mean, maybe my memory of that chapter and other house-elf oriented stuff is wrong, but I really don't remember anything other than rejection of the notion of wages or self-mastery.

I don't see any evidence for saying that Dobby isn't just a weirdo. And it's okay that he's a weirdo, he's an awesome weirdo, but that's what he is. I really don't see any inchoate, half-expressed desires for freedom in other house elves. They seem to be pretty negative on the whole deal.

Yeah, that's...exactly what I said? Where did I say other House Elves ever expressed a desire to be free? I said the exact opposite: the way they treated Dobby and their situation was really fucked up. Like there was some weird culture that sprang up among House Elves because apart from Dobby, they all equated being free with not being able to serve humans, and therefore treated Dobby like some dangerous crazy radical who was an affront to the House Elf way of life or something.

What? But how does that square up with your theory that the only reason they're okay with being enslaved is that they want to serve humans?

If that's the case, wouldn't they be super-inspired by Dobby because he found a way to still serve humans while throwing off the bonds of slavery? Instead of categorically objecting to it? Because Dobby is still serving humans. That's what he's doing. If all they cared about was serving humans they wouldn't have an issue with Dobby and they certainly wouldn't reject being paid with so much fervor.

(no subject)

intrigueing - 2013-03-14 00:11 (UTC) - Expand

So yeah, I would totally side-eye fans who try to justify the slavery. I mean, how do they explain Dobby? Dobby wasn't different because he was weird or deviant or something, it was because he either had enough grit and intelligence to realize that taking care of humans =/= being a slave, or was in a terrible enough situation that he decided he'd rather be free than serve the Malfoys. Which is, y'know, a good thing.

But...all of the house elves consider Dobby to be weird and deviant. Think of a facet of the human condition, and I promise you there's someone out there who subverts it. This doesn't mean that Dobby "saw through" something, it just means he's fundamentally different, and as far as we know, the only reason for that is the severe abuse he suffered.

I think the real issue is that people expect house elves to act and think and want like humans, but they're not human. They don't think like humans, they don't have human thoughts, morals, or ideas, they have house elf ones.

I don't know, maybe it makes more sense to me because I'm more of a sci-fi fan, and the concept of alien psychology is a big theme. I like house elves because they're probably the only species or element of Rowling's universe that is actually separated from humans. You look at things like the Sorting Hat, and it's really messed up, but somehow it's okay because it's a wizarding tradition.

If there's any issue with the elves, it's that their abuse is actually acceptable in wizarding society, and Rowling really never addresses how messed up that is. But the concept of a species that only desires to do household chores is a really long standing on in human folk lore.

Edited 2013-03-14 00:05 (UTC)

When I say "weird" and "deviant" I meant from the reader's POV, not from the House Elves. He was definitely weird and deviant from a House Elf POV, but he was supposed to be the "right" one from the readers' POV.

But I think Rowling does address it. She doesn't make anything big of it, because god forbid DH be about anything interesting (still bitter!), but the scene in the kitchens in GoF where Winky was drunk and Hermione tries to get them to join SPEW pretty handily portrayed the House Elves there as having a pretty terrible mindset.

JK Rowling did expand a bit on SPEW afterwards:
"Hermione began her post-Hogwarts career at the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures where she was instrumental in greatly improving life for house-elves and their ilk."

That doesn't clear up the "do House Elves like their condition or not" debate but it does show that at least, all of those who don't like it, they get to have a choice after Deathly Hallows, which is something that they didn't have. Before, they could very well be happy to serve a family for no pay other than food and lodgings, but they couldn't choose which family they'd work for and couldn't leave either. I guess Hermione found a middle ground between her initial idea of SPEW and the wishes of the House Elves.

That's probably the best I've seen that distinction made. I never liked the idea of justifying their slavery, but Hermione's efforts in SPEW always seemed equally wrong, but I guess it's because they both come down to denying the House Elves their choice in the matter.

Tricking them always seemed skeevy as heck to me.

Well she WAS only 15 years old, even if she was extremely smart....

This. It was by far not the best way to handle it, but she was a teen who had grown up in the Muggle world, where slavery is pretty much universally recognized as something horrible and wrong. I can't blame her for being unable to wrap her mind around the fact anyone could consider it right. Especially not at such a young age.

Don't blame the fans because JKR created a race of beings that want to be enslaved.

This, basically.

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