[ SECRET POST #269 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #269 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

1. The F!S Friending Meme! Go do it! I am totally open to friending. (:
2. Have some emopuppy in a fish tank!
3. BECAUSE I CAN: TAKE THIS POLL BUTTMUNCHERS FTW

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 168 secrets from Secret Submission Post #039.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken link, 0 not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, a few things.

First, to clarify the secret, since apparently I phrased a few things wrong:

This doesn't apply to anybody and everybody who ships Miles/Franziska, not by a long shot. It isn't simply "Oh, you like them as a ship? Well then you must be the scum of the earth!" at all.

As a writer, I try to take inordinate amounts of care when dealing with my fiction. I try to know and understand the relationship between the characters beforehand, because without a good grasp of that canon dynamic, I feel that my writing won't be nearly as good as it could be. If something in canon interferes or contradicts with the story I want to tell, then I either have to incorporate it into the story and into the plot (and DEAL with it) or change the story.... not change the canon.

That's hugely important to me as a writer.

In the PW games, I absolutely adore the dynamic that Miles Edgeworth and Franziska von Karma have with one another. It's possibly my favorite in the entire series... and it is very much a familial relationship. They see each other as siblings, and interact accordingly. It's adorable and awesome, and again, one of my favorite dynamics in a series filled with great relationships.

However, the VAST majority of people who I see shipping these two or writing about them... completely ignore this PRIMARY facet of their relationship. Whether they didn't get it while playing, or willfully choose to ignore it/sugarcoat it/pretend it's something it isn't... they don't take it into account at all. And it -does-. It's hugely central to their relationship--they AREN'T "childhood friends who grew up together," they're SIBLINGS.

And it's the fact that the people I see shipping this pair miss that or ignore it completely that makes me lose a bit of respect for them as a writer. If someone ships them or writes about them romantically... while TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THEIR ESTABLISHED DYNAMIC... then that's great, and more power to them. My hat goes off to the fan who does that.

Unfortunately, I don't SEE any of that. And that's what the secret was about.

Secondly... well, I'm a bit new to this community, so forgive me if I've missed something, but what's the big hubbub over "lose respect" in a secret? It's not like I'm saying I suddenly hate someone's very existence, I just lose a little faith in their ability as a writer if they take such a cop-out (or don't see it at all). I admit to being a bit puzzled over the backlash, and some clarification would be appreciated :/

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Look, CFTF #21, we know you OTP Franziska/Adrian, and there's nothing wrong with that. But to pretend that you can take Franziska's one, off-handed, highly-up-to-interpretation, most-likely joking comment about him being her little brother as CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE DEFINITELY RAISED AS SIBLINGS? That's reaching. There's no solid canon as to the nature of their relationship. Miles and Manfred could've been off in America practically the whole time she was sitting in Germany, for all you know. Is the familial interpretation a completely valid one? Yes. But that's the way that YOU see them; it's not canon.

I don't ship Franziska/Edgeworth, either, but get a clue. It's not incest no matter how much you want it to be.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Except she refers to him as her brother several times and all completely seriously, they were raised together since she was two, and the way they interact together in 3-5 sort of bashes you over the head with "SIBLINGS. SIBLINGS. SIBLINGS." repeatedly? It sort of doesn't get more canon than that.

And other pairings have no bearing on this whatsoever. Don't pretend that they do.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Gargh, no edit feature.

She calls him her brother. At LEAST twice that I can think of off the top of my head. Both times, completely seriously and in-context. And the way they interact in 2-4 and 3-5 only reinforces that their relationship is COMPLETELY familial.

Franziska outright SAYS it... not once, offhandedly, but at least twice. Somehow that's not good enough, though?

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Let me back up a minute and say that I do see them as siblings; I think it's a likely interpretation, and it is the one I personally enjoy the most. But it's not explicitly stated, and thus is not canon. You have no idea how they were raised. It's just as likely as she's being sarcastic (and I'd like to think the fact that she calls him a LITTLE brother would underline that she's not stating these things "completely seriously"). Not to mention that their sibling behavior of which you speak is also subject to interpretation.

Stating that their sibling relationship is canon is just as silly as saying that Edgeworth's "unnecessary feelings" makes Phoenix/Edgeworth canon. If you want to be squicked by Edgeworth/Franziska, that's fair. If you want to dislike it and even the people who write it, that's also fair. Everybody has things they dislike. Just don't go around stating that it's canon incest when it clearly isn't.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

She DOES see him as a little brother, because she sees him as someone who needs her to watch out for him (one of her primary reasons for coming to America, for one). She ISN'T being sarcastic, she isn't being off-hand, that's how she genuinely sees it.

Honestly? I genuinely don't believe it is subject to interpretation at all. The way they act towards each other in 3-5? The way Miles says that if she doesn't pull herself together and find the right path, he'll go ahead without her in 2-4? The way she reacts to him after his earthquake episode in 3-5? No, I honestly do not believe it IS subject to interpretation; it's crystal-clear to me that it was written in a very specific way.

"Stating that their sibling relationship is canon is just as silly as saying that Edgeworth's "unnecessary feelings" makes Phoenix/Edgeworth canon."

Like hell it is. That line CLEARLY has its own meaning, and anyone taking that to mean something else is either a bit odd or joking. Meanwhile, here you have a pair of characters who ACT like they're siblings, who treat each other like siblings both in their presence and out, and who CALL each other siblings.

There really isn't much wiggle room here.

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Just because she wants to protect him does not mean that is a familial obligation. All it means that she feels strongly about him. And they bicker, so what? Friends bicker. Enemies bicker. ROMANTIC COUPLES bicker.

Try stepping back and separating the short snippets of text we actually get in the game from the massive amount of extrapolation you've done. Try pretending you don't already have that bias.

For example, have you ever considered that "little brother" might be a term of frustration and condescension? Never mind that she never actually calls him that to his face. Do you really think that von Karma would have raised them side by side, as though they were both his children? Considering how much time von Karma spent in the states and the fact that Franziska was born and raised in Germany, where do you suppose Miles was? He was adopted by her father, so maybe she's supposed to see him as a brother, but that doesn't mean she actually does, and if Manfred's attitude made the line between them clear, she would have noticed it even from a young age.

Consider that she never refers to Manfred as anything but Papa. Not Father, not Vater, but Papa. Does that automatically mean she loves and respects him, or is she being ironic? She seems pretty indifferent when the subject comes up. Would you argue that there is canon on this subject? And if not, how is that much different?

There's plenty of wiggle room. You just refuse to see it.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

No, that's not necessarily a familial obligation. But that IS why she thinks of him as a "little brother," rather than going by age.

You're looking for loopholes. Yes, she calls him Papa. Does that mean she automatically loves and respects him? No, it means he's her father. It isn't a term of frustration or condescension, it isn't glib and offhand, it means he's her damn father. Similarly, she calls Edgeworth her brother because.... GASP.... he's her damn brother.

There are times when other interpretations are wrong. This is one of those times.

Forgive me for being snappy. I'm sick, piled with reading and papers, and exhausted to the point of tears. So if I've been more blunt than required, it isn't any personal slight, so please don't take offense.

Re: 21 OP here...

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

Except wait, where does Franziska state she was born and raised in Germany? She was doing prosecutorial work there, but I don't recall canon explicitly stating she was born and raised there.

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

It's at the very beginning of JFA, before you actually meet Franziska. Phoenix is like, "I didn't know von Karma had a successor!" and I think it's Gumshoe who says that it's because she was born and raised in Germany. So, not by Franziska, but it is explicitly stated.

Besides that, in the third game, she keeps saying things like, "I hear you Americans have a phrase like" or, "Is this the way you Americans do it?"

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

So then apparently Miles was raised in Germany as well.

But wait, are you sure Gumshoe says she was born and raised there? Doesn't he just say she's been practicing law there?

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily. Manfred von Karma only went on vacation for a few months before returning to his prosecuting duties. It doesn't say how much time he spent in either country. We do know that he's won the King of Prosecutors trophy multiple times, which means that he's been in America quite a lot.

"The kid was born and raised in Germany, pal."

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

It sort of doesn't get more canon than that.

Except for actually being canon. That would make it more canon.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

They talk about each other (to other people) like they're siblings.

They interact like they're siblings.

They were raised together since they were 2 and 9, respectively.

They EXPLICITLY REFER TO EACH OTHER AS SIBLINGS.


I'm REALLY not seeing how this needs to be more canon. What, do you want them to be saying "Well, MY SISTER, FRANZISKA, blah blah blah" every single time they mention each other? Jesus Christ.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

Yes, I demand this for every sibling couple in every series even and especially if they are blood relatives.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just saying.

It IS canon, and I don't see how they could possibly make it any more canon than it already is. Honestly, there really ISN'T much room for interpretation there.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

The games never say anything about how they were raised or even if they spent their childhoods on the same continent. We know Manfred raised them both, but we don't know what country(s) he did it in, how long it took Franziska to learn English (which she still doesn't speak perfectly), how long it took Miles to learn German, or if he ever learned German. Like many back-stories in Ace Attorney, there is a whole lot of room for interpretation. I'm not knocking the sibling interpretation, I'm saying it's just that: an interpretation. I don't see why this is something to get up in arms over. ;)

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

You're right, we don't know that. Honestly, though? It doesn't matter.

We know that for the most recent six years (from the "present" of the game), Franziska and Miles were apart, practicing law in Germany and America respectively. That was since they were 13 and 20.

Correct, we don't know how LONG they were raised together or anything ABOUT their childhood, that is COMPLETELY up to interpretation. But the fact that they WERE raised together is not. Regardless of how long they were together... Miles is the ONE person Franziska allows to see her vulnerable side. Franziska, too, knows Miles' deepest fears and secrets--despite their meeting in 2-4, they hadn't seen each other in six years. Yet the INSTANT the earthquake hits in 3-5, her first thought is Miles.

The DETAILS of their childhood and upbringing are certainly up for interpretation. The fact that they consequently see each other as siblings, though? Is not.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

So, just for clarity's sake, and because it's Phoenix Wright, what exactly is your here?

-The fact that they spent somewhere between 6 months to four years together when they were young.
-The fact that on three occasions over two games, Franziska refers to him as "little brother." (But, mind you, never to his face).
-That they are very, very close.

Am I missing anything?

Re: 21 OP here...

[levikitty.livejournal.com]

To answer your last question, this community for a while, was overrun with petty "lose respect" secrets, such as, "I automatically lose respect for anyone that ships this" or "I automatically lose respect for someone when they say they like x series." Most people have an issue with the phrase because it's automatically associated with some type of stereotyping of fans: All people who ship this couple act like this. All people who are fans of this series act like this.

Never has anyone used it in the sense you did, which is why everyone's jumping you for it.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Agh, fair enough. Wish I'd known that beforehand, so I'd have phrased it differently. Then maybe there'd be people responding to, y'know, the actual secret instead of my choice of words :/

[shahni.livejournal.com]

Stepping in here just to say that there is no disagreement with your secret at all, and to pick at the way you worded this is lame. And now to speak of what the secret was talking about, I personally prefer Franziska and Edgeworth -as- siblings myself even though they're obviously not blood related. Then again, that's how I see Phoenix and Maya as well, and sometimes, well- MOST of the time, it would be nice to see them as purely platonic. But that's a personal bias based on their interactions in the game, and making them sexual would change things a lot. (Though I can see it happen too!)

In fact, to this day, I only see Ron DeLite and Desiree DeLite as the most PLAUSIBLE sexually possible in canon pairing in the game! XD Let's ignore that they're married and that it's a given, heheh.. But for the other characters, we aren't given so much, so... yeah, that's all up to us to fill in the blanks, yes? Like how we get Phoenix/Edgeworth and so on and so forth. Interpretation goes a long way, and it's what gives us food for thought.

Uh, tl;dr rambling aside...

Fans are fans, and Franziska and Edgeworth have an amazing dynamic that based on interpretation -can- become romantic should they write it properly- but very few are going to take the effort to go so deeply into their character to do so, which in itself is a sad thing. But at the same time, the fact that we are given as much as we are, and it's left to interpretation in the end, is what makes fandom debate and view as interesting as it is.

So, power to you, for taking the trouble and time to go into what clues we're given in canon, and turning them into a well-investigated if not believable interpretation of their relationship. Very few fans are open to possibilities without resorting to bashing what becomes a different opinion, and the fact that you're only considering that they -keep- the familial reference in mind while using that as a basis for whatever form of relationship they would like to see them in, is a very reasonable view to have.

Thank you for being an awesome fan. ♥

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

you're confusing me with the comments later made.

are they or are they not blood related? on one hand you argue they 'seem like' and 'act like' but that does not make them actually blood relatives.

I have a friend, opposite sex, since childhood. we are obviously very close. anyone who sees us together inevitably asks 1) are you two related? 2) are you two married?.

we are neither but we 'act like' it, we 'seem like' it to people outside our relationship but we are not blood related. just very very very close friends, for a very long time.

this does not make us related by blood, no matter how much we wish it.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

They are not blood related, but they were raised together since childhood, and their demeanor to one another is clearly that of siblings; they also REFER to one another as siblings.

Re: 21 OP here...

[moebot.livejournal.com]

As a writer, I try to take inordinate amounts of care when dealing with my fiction.

As a writer... I enjoy starting statements with "As a writer."

Because I'm a writer you see. And I say that as a writer!