[ SECRET POST #269 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #269 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

1. The F!S Friending Meme! Go do it! I am totally open to friending. (:
2. Have some emopuppy in a fish tank!
3. BECAUSE I CAN: TAKE THIS POLL BUTTMUNCHERS FTW

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 168 secrets from Secret Submission Post #039.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken link, 0 not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Tuesday, October 2nd, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Look, CFTF #21, we know you OTP Franziska/Adrian, and there's nothing wrong with that. But to pretend that you can take Franziska's one, off-handed, highly-up-to-interpretation, most-likely joking comment about him being her little brother as CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT THEY WERE DEFINITELY RAISED AS SIBLINGS? That's reaching. There's no solid canon as to the nature of their relationship. Miles and Manfred could've been off in America practically the whole time she was sitting in Germany, for all you know. Is the familial interpretation a completely valid one? Yes. But that's the way that YOU see them; it's not canon.

I don't ship Franziska/Edgeworth, either, but get a clue. It's not incest no matter how much you want it to be.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Except she refers to him as her brother several times and all completely seriously, they were raised together since she was two, and the way they interact together in 3-5 sort of bashes you over the head with "SIBLINGS. SIBLINGS. SIBLINGS." repeatedly? It sort of doesn't get more canon than that.

And other pairings have no bearing on this whatsoever. Don't pretend that they do.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Gargh, no edit feature.

She calls him her brother. At LEAST twice that I can think of off the top of my head. Both times, completely seriously and in-context. And the way they interact in 2-4 and 3-5 only reinforces that their relationship is COMPLETELY familial.

Franziska outright SAYS it... not once, offhandedly, but at least twice. Somehow that's not good enough, though?

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Let me back up a minute and say that I do see them as siblings; I think it's a likely interpretation, and it is the one I personally enjoy the most. But it's not explicitly stated, and thus is not canon. You have no idea how they were raised. It's just as likely as she's being sarcastic (and I'd like to think the fact that she calls him a LITTLE brother would underline that she's not stating these things "completely seriously"). Not to mention that their sibling behavior of which you speak is also subject to interpretation.

Stating that their sibling relationship is canon is just as silly as saying that Edgeworth's "unnecessary feelings" makes Phoenix/Edgeworth canon. If you want to be squicked by Edgeworth/Franziska, that's fair. If you want to dislike it and even the people who write it, that's also fair. Everybody has things they dislike. Just don't go around stating that it's canon incest when it clearly isn't.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

She DOES see him as a little brother, because she sees him as someone who needs her to watch out for him (one of her primary reasons for coming to America, for one). She ISN'T being sarcastic, she isn't being off-hand, that's how she genuinely sees it.

Honestly? I genuinely don't believe it is subject to interpretation at all. The way they act towards each other in 3-5? The way Miles says that if she doesn't pull herself together and find the right path, he'll go ahead without her in 2-4? The way she reacts to him after his earthquake episode in 3-5? No, I honestly do not believe it IS subject to interpretation; it's crystal-clear to me that it was written in a very specific way.

"Stating that their sibling relationship is canon is just as silly as saying that Edgeworth's "unnecessary feelings" makes Phoenix/Edgeworth canon."

Like hell it is. That line CLEARLY has its own meaning, and anyone taking that to mean something else is either a bit odd or joking. Meanwhile, here you have a pair of characters who ACT like they're siblings, who treat each other like siblings both in their presence and out, and who CALL each other siblings.

There really isn't much wiggle room here.

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Just because she wants to protect him does not mean that is a familial obligation. All it means that she feels strongly about him. And they bicker, so what? Friends bicker. Enemies bicker. ROMANTIC COUPLES bicker.

Try stepping back and separating the short snippets of text we actually get in the game from the massive amount of extrapolation you've done. Try pretending you don't already have that bias.

For example, have you ever considered that "little brother" might be a term of frustration and condescension? Never mind that she never actually calls him that to his face. Do you really think that von Karma would have raised them side by side, as though they were both his children? Considering how much time von Karma spent in the states and the fact that Franziska was born and raised in Germany, where do you suppose Miles was? He was adopted by her father, so maybe she's supposed to see him as a brother, but that doesn't mean she actually does, and if Manfred's attitude made the line between them clear, she would have noticed it even from a young age.

Consider that she never refers to Manfred as anything but Papa. Not Father, not Vater, but Papa. Does that automatically mean she loves and respects him, or is she being ironic? She seems pretty indifferent when the subject comes up. Would you argue that there is canon on this subject? And if not, how is that much different?

There's plenty of wiggle room. You just refuse to see it.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

No, that's not necessarily a familial obligation. But that IS why she thinks of him as a "little brother," rather than going by age.

You're looking for loopholes. Yes, she calls him Papa. Does that mean she automatically loves and respects him? No, it means he's her father. It isn't a term of frustration or condescension, it isn't glib and offhand, it means he's her damn father. Similarly, she calls Edgeworth her brother because.... GASP.... he's her damn brother.

There are times when other interpretations are wrong. This is one of those times.

Forgive me for being snappy. I'm sick, piled with reading and papers, and exhausted to the point of tears. So if I've been more blunt than required, it isn't any personal slight, so please don't take offense.

Re: 21 OP here...

[kinneas.livejournal.com]

Except wait, where does Franziska state she was born and raised in Germany? She was doing prosecutorial work there, but I don't recall canon explicitly stating she was born and raised there.

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

It's at the very beginning of JFA, before you actually meet Franziska. Phoenix is like, "I didn't know von Karma had a successor!" and I think it's Gumshoe who says that it's because she was born and raised in Germany. So, not by Franziska, but it is explicitly stated.

Besides that, in the third game, she keeps saying things like, "I hear you Americans have a phrase like" or, "Is this the way you Americans do it?"

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

So then apparently Miles was raised in Germany as well.

But wait, are you sure Gumshoe says she was born and raised there? Doesn't he just say she's been practicing law there?

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

Not necessarily. Manfred von Karma only went on vacation for a few months before returning to his prosecuting duties. It doesn't say how much time he spent in either country. We do know that he's won the King of Prosecutors trophy multiple times, which means that he's been in America quite a lot.

"The kid was born and raised in Germany, pal."

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, so she was raised in Germany.

Ergo, Miles spent a significant time being raised in Germany as well. They -were- raised together. Unless they magically developed their incredibly powerful relationship while being apart.

Re: 21 OP here...

[uncreativity.livejournal.com]

...wow. Are we talking about the same "incredibly powerful relationship" that involved them not seeing each other for six years? The same "incredibly powerful relationship" that only brought her out to America after he started losing trials? Never mind that von Karmas are highly driven by arrogance and pride and she comes swearing revenge.

I know I'm barking up the wrong tree here, and I'm getting tired of arguing against a relationship that I support, but do you get what I'm attempting to say? You're picking yet another subjective topic and working backwards.

I'm going to do this one more time, and that's it. This is the last time, and then I give up on all of you forever.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

It sort of doesn't get more canon than that.

Except for actually being canon. That would make it more canon.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

They talk about each other (to other people) like they're siblings.

They interact like they're siblings.

They were raised together since they were 2 and 9, respectively.

They EXPLICITLY REFER TO EACH OTHER AS SIBLINGS.


I'm REALLY not seeing how this needs to be more canon. What, do you want them to be saying "Well, MY SISTER, FRANZISKA, blah blah blah" every single time they mention each other? Jesus Christ.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

Yes, I demand this for every sibling couple in every series even and especially if they are blood relatives.

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just saying.

It IS canon, and I don't see how they could possibly make it any more canon than it already is. Honestly, there really ISN'T much room for interpretation there.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

You keep saying that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

The games never say anything about how they were raised or even if they spent their childhoods on the same continent. We know Manfred raised them both, but we don't know what country(s) he did it in, how long it took Franziska to learn English (which she still doesn't speak perfectly), how long it took Miles to learn German, or if he ever learned German. Like many back-stories in Ace Attorney, there is a whole lot of room for interpretation. I'm not knocking the sibling interpretation, I'm saying it's just that: an interpretation. I don't see why this is something to get up in arms over. ;)

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

You're right, we don't know that. Honestly, though? It doesn't matter.

We know that for the most recent six years (from the "present" of the game), Franziska and Miles were apart, practicing law in Germany and America respectively. That was since they were 13 and 20.

Correct, we don't know how LONG they were raised together or anything ABOUT their childhood, that is COMPLETELY up to interpretation. But the fact that they WERE raised together is not. Regardless of how long they were together... Miles is the ONE person Franziska allows to see her vulnerable side. Franziska, too, knows Miles' deepest fears and secrets--despite their meeting in 2-4, they hadn't seen each other in six years. Yet the INSTANT the earthquake hits in 3-5, her first thought is Miles.

The DETAILS of their childhood and upbringing are certainly up for interpretation. The fact that they consequently see each other as siblings, though? Is not.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

So, just for clarity's sake, and because it's Phoenix Wright, what exactly is your here?

-The fact that they spent somewhere between 6 months to four years together when they were young.
-The fact that on three occasions over two games, Franziska refers to him as "little brother." (But, mind you, never to his face).
-That they are very, very close.

Am I missing anything?

Re: 21 OP here...

[(Anonymous)]

-Not sure quite where you're getting these numbers from. It's entirely possible for them to have lived together for up to 11 years before Franziska went to Germany/Miles+Manfred went to America to practice law (since we don't know where they were raised).

But yes, that's a part of it. Miles was a part of Franziska's life since she was TWO. I can't remember back to being two. They were raised together.

-Franziska does call him her brother, yes. I don't quite see why the fact that she never does it to his face is relevant; I don't call my own brother, "Brother," when I talk to him.

-It's more than just that they're close. Yes, they're close, tremendously so. Franziska knows about Edgeworth's fear of earthquakes, and immediately remembers it in 3-5 despite not having seen him for six years before 2-4. This is not something he openly shares with people. Edgeworth, in turn, is the only person to whom Franziska dares to show her more vulnerable self. Franziska is also one of the few people whom Edgeworth addresses by their first name.

But it's more than just being close. It's that the dynamic and trust between them is very familial in nature; the way they talk to one another. One of Franziska's primary motivations in coming to America was to find Miles, whom she thought had fallen from the true path and shamed himself, and set him back on track.

Their relationship is... uniquely them. It's no question that they care about each other tremendously, but they're never coddling. When Franziska says that she's going to quit being a prosecutor, she's a failure, Edgeworth isn't all "oh, I'll help you work through it, we can do it together." He outright says that if she doesn't pick herself up, find her own road--not the road of her father--and follow it? He'll continue on and leave her behind. However, he says that because he has faith in her ability to master herself and improve on her own.

Similarly, after Edgeworth is being all emo after the earthquake in 3-5, Franziska doesn't coddle him. She tells him to go outside and get over it, they need him to be sharp. Again, she has faith in his ability to master himself and overcome his own obstacles.

Some might call that "tough love." If viewed in a romantic context, honestly it becomes incredibly creepy and verges on emotional blackmail (particularly the airport scene). Which is why it screams familial context to me, given that there's such tremendous love--but restrained, tempered with respect and faith that the other can do it on their own without their help.

Again, it's more than just them being 'close,' it's HOW they interact. And that's what hammers "SIBLINGS! SIBLINGS! SIBLINGS!" into my head. Quite honestly... I can truthfully not see any other interpretation. Parts of their relationship ARE up for interpretation, and certainly their past is as well. But I don't believe for an instant that they're anything but siblings in canon.

Re: 21 OP here...

[laserdragon.livejournal.com]

Your main points here seem to be "the facts don't matter, it's how they act." And based on interpreting how they act, you are claiming something to be canon. It doesn't work that way. The end. Just because you can't see it any other way doesn't make it canon.

Re: 21 OP here...

[yuuo.livejournal.com]

Some might call that "tough love." If viewed in a romantic context, honestly it becomes incredibly creepy and verges on emotional blackmail (particularly the airport scene). Which is why it screams familial context to me, given that there's such tremendous love--but restrained, tempered with respect and faith that the other can do it on their own without their help.

Dude. I'm not even in your goddamn family and that makes me wanna reach through my screen and smack you good and proper, regardless of if it knocks sense into you or not. You really think that's not emotional blackmail if it's familial?

As a victim of familial emotional abuse, I give you a hearty "fuck you!"

It's actually worse for that to be coming from your family- those are the people you're supposed to be able to count on the most, who know you the most, who you're supposed to be able to trust the most. So it's a worse betrayal for that kind of shit to come from a family member. And as a sibling who had a terribly rocky relationship with her little brother growing up, the only slap in the face that could sting more than that is the one that comes from a parent.

Are you saying that a mate can't have respect and faith that you can do something on your own? 'Cause if so, then goddamn, do you need to stop commenting on human behavior and relationships and emotions entirely, because you don't get it at all. And I say this as a person who has two mates, generally dislikes romance, and as a fan, tends to stay away from fluffy pairings and go for the more completely bunny-fucked-in-the-head pairings.

People who love each other will interact in the way that is comfortable for them, regardless of if it's familial or romantic in nature.

Re: 21 OP here...

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Doesn't Franziska come back to redeem the family name? At the time of game 2 no one knows where Edgeworth is. If her primary motivation was to set him on track, it'd be a damn weird choice to go where she knew he wasn't.

Re: 21 OP here...

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I feel like someone should be hitting the "press" button with their stylus now.