fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2427 ]

[ SECRET POST #2427 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2427 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 068 secrets from Secret Submission Post #347.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Don't look at me man, I'm mostly here for the angel.

Having said that though, I will say this (as someone who likes Sam as a person better of the two brothers and thinks Dean is attractive, entertaining and basically a good guy, but also kind of an ass sometimes:)

Dean has messed up, misjudged, and occasionally screwed the pooch in various ways, yes. But he has yet to suffer his big "fall from grace" the way Sam and Cas both have--a big fat moral failure with catastrophic consequences for everyone, where he really should have known better but went there anyway, despite multiple warnings and danger signs--and I think his character and the plot suffer for it.

He still occupies a spot on the show's moral high ground that makes it impossible for him to interact with either of the others as true equals, because he hasn't had that experience; he can still judge them and they still have no choice but to accept it. The story has been calling for him to initiate his own gigantic clusterfuck and be taken down a few pegs for some time now.

Sam doesn't give Dean as hard a time because Sam hasn't got the moral authority to do so. And to repeat, at this stage of the game I really think that's a bad thing. Neither of the brothers nor Castiel should be in a position to condemn each other after all this time. It's unbalanced and unfair to all of them. And getting pretty old.

But he has yet to suffer his big "fall from grace" the way Sam and Cas both have--a big fat moral failure with catastrophic consequences for everyone, where he really should have known better but went there anyway, despite multiple warnings and danger signs-

Well, technically, his Deal for Sam's life lead to Dean breaking the first seal to release Lucifer, setting the apocalypse in motion, so I don't think this statement is quite accurate. Technically.

However, I don't see Dean's deal as being on the same level of fuck up as Sam and Cas' choices the last few years, I mean, they REALLY fucked up and were playing with fire that could lead to massively bad shit, whereas Dean had no way of knowing that his deal would lead to the apocalypse, he thought it was simply gonna lead to his eternal torment, end of story.

I actually thought they were gonna have Benny be his big, stupid mistake that made a mess of things, but I was very wrong (and I'm okay with that, I ended up really liking their relationship and would have been sad to see them as enemies), I wonder if they'll try again this season.

da

Well, if we want to get technical, Dean's deal was set in motion years before by YED, who worked at manipulating Sam and Dean both to put them in position to where they could break their respective seals. (What, you thought YED was taunting Dean about how Sam and John didn't need him like he needed them back in the S1 finale for his health or just because Dean looks pretty when anguished? ...Okay maybe a bit that second point.)

And, if you want to go back further than that, YED was only targeting Sam and Dean because Mary made her deal to save John.

And if you want to go back further than that, Mary only made her deal because Dean went back in time. YED took note of Mary to begin with because Dean told the Campbells that YED would target one of Mary's friends - Mary hadn't planned to go along until she knew a friend was involved and YED hadn't known about her before that. Not to mention that Dean showing up when only angels could move people through time (until S7 but we won't talk about S7) let YED know that his plan was working and that Dean's younger sibling would be the one he'd target.

Only it goes back further than that because clearly Dean couldn't go back in time by himself. The angels sent him back. So clearly it is originally their fault.

Except that angels don't have free will and are all preprogrammed and such. Which makes it God's fault. And seriously if the buck can't stop with God, then I just don't know what to tell you.

:D

All of this is somewhat tongue in cheek. I agree with your overall point about Dean's deal not being on the same level as what Sam and Cas did. At the very least, Sam and Cas knew what scale they were playing on. Dean had no idea his deal would affect anything other than Sam and Dean himself.

I liked Benny too! I hadn't expected that I would since I'm pretty tired of vampires but I thought they had a wonderful relationship. Benny is one of the very few characters I wouldn't mind seeing brought back from the dead, especially since his resurrection method has already been very well established.

Also, if we're getting technical, Cas only made his deal with Crowley because Raphael was a gigantic asshat who forced his hand, AND because Heaven and Hell (or God by implication) had already done all that shit to the Winchesters and Campbells and he was trying not to add to the steaming pile of crap. (Which backfired. Spectacularly.) XD

Exactly--Dean didn't keep ugly secrets or ignore multiple warnings from people he knew and trusted along the way, while listening to and conspiring with someone he knew he had good reason not to. Sam and Bobby didn't want him to do it, obviously, and they all knew it would affect the two of them as well as Dean, but nobody had any idea until long after the fact that there was a much bigger picture.

All of them, too, had much less experience at that time with the fact that these things *could* go so massively off the rails (again, also unlike Sam and Cas later on, who'd both watched it happen before.) All of which largely lets Dean off the hook, or at least places him at a whole different level of culpability than the other two.

On the other hand, he did kill Kaylee, so I've got to dock him serious points for that, lol.

All joking aside, I don't think that Dean needs to make a massive, potentially world ending mistake to be on the same level as Sam and Cas. Because I kind of think he already is, and his not admitting it/acting like the others are less moral than him is a dick move. Just because Dean's mistakes didn't endanger as large populations doesn't make them less terrible. He still keeps secrets. He will still murder people. He shouldn't be judging Sam and/or Cas and, honestly, I'm really tired of watching the main characters catastrophically fuck things up, so I'm hoping we never have to see that plot line again (I'm sure that we will.)

I don't think Dean has ever acted like he's more moral than Sam or Cas, just that he knows better.

One thing the show has been pretty consistent on is that Dean is a good judge of character, and a great leader. And Sam and Cas have proven themselves to be pretty fucking bad judges of character, and mediocre leaders. So when he gets high and mighty, well, he's probably just as sick of them not taking his advice as we are.

Plus, Dean's fuck-ups aren't usually due to his ego, unlike Sam and Cas'.

Riight...like how he immediately pegged Gordon Walker and the siren as bad news and Lenore and Amy as okay? And never judges anyone based on preconceived prejudices? Oh wait.

As for his leadership qualities, well, that's a bit of a mixed bag, isn't it? Sure he can get people motivated, especially if they're scared, inexperienced, easily intimidated or otherwise begging for someone to tell them what to do (then again, in those situations, so can Sam.) But he can also scare and/or antagonize the hell out of them, whether it's the Ghostfacers, the Chitaqua campers, or his own brother and Cas. 'I'm not going to logic you; do what I say just because' and 'If you walk out that door don't you ever come back!' are really, really lousy persuasive techniques, as a couple of examples.

He all too often fails to recognize the fact that the reason they're not listening to his advice is because he comes across all high and mighty rather than addressing them as equals.

He all too often fails to recognize the fact that the reason they're not listening to his advice is because he comes across all high and mighty rather than addressing them as equals.

Sam, is that you? Because this sounds just like the excuse Sam would use in defending one of his shitty decisions. "Well okay, I fucked a demon and got addicted to her blood and released Lucifer, but you're bossy and like, high and mighty, so it's not really my fault.

And FYI, Amy wasn't okay. She was stalking and killing people. But even if she wasn't, the whole point of Dean killing her is that he was in a really fucked up place. He wasn't acting in a not-normal-for-Dean manner. And Dean admitted he was wrong about Lenore. As for Gordon, he was specifically someone Dean was bonding with as a result of his trauma over his father's death, he wasn't himself then and Gordon wasn't someone he'd have bonded with if he wasn't in such a bad place. That was kinda the point of the episode, ya know? And just like Amy and Gordon, the Siren was specifically to illustrate Dean's fucked-up state. He was there to show Dean's internal fucked-upness regarding Sam's bullshit of season 4.

As for Dean's leadership skills, whatever. He's always the one who makes the decisions, comes up with the plans, leads the attacks. He's the one who motivates and deals with the opposition. It's a common thread in the show, that when Sam or Cas doesn't take his advice or listen to him, they end up regretting it.

Hey, nobody said Sam's (or Cas's) screw-ups weren't their own fault. They both had warnings from other people than Dean. They made stupid asshat decisions and that's on their heads. But Dean was one of the very few people who was in a position to head them both off, and he failed each time because he had to fall back on John Winchester's "My way or the highway" attitude, which all else aside was pretty much guaranteed to piss Sam off and drive him away, as Dean knew perfectly well (or should have, after watching it play out over and over again since they were kids.)

Also, if you're going to excuse Dean's bad decisions because of extenuating circumstances, then play fair and excuse the others as well: Sam was in a really bad fucked-up place after Dean's horrible death and descent to Hell, and Cas had 24 hours to come up with a viable alternative to "surrender, die (and let the Apocalypse happen either way) or drag your best friend back into a horrible life he's trying to escape." An alternative, by the way, which nobody in the show ever did come up with. Dean was hellbent on making him stop, but he didn't have any better ideas and didn't even appear to try to think of any (what was that about coming up with the plans?)

It really doesn't matter how right or wrong Dean is if he can't get people to listen to him. And they don't listen because he can't (or won't) get off his high horse and treat others as competent adults, inspiring a desire in them to prove his condescending ass wrong.

It really doesn't matter how right or wrong Dean is if he can't get people to listen to him. And they don't listen because he can't (or won't) get off his high horse and treat others as competent adults, inspiring a desire in them to prove his condescending ass wrong.

How fucking childish. These are grown ass people, not 16 year olds.

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[ SECRET POST #2427 ]

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