fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2479 ]

[ SECRET POST #2479 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2479 ⌋

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FFFF, I'll just reply here. Sorry, guys, I'm way too tired today to engage in thorny political discussion and this kinda upset me a lot. I'm not made for wank.

First of all: I /will/ apologize for the mis-use of the term "redneck". I forgot the demeaning connotations of it (mainly the part about "rednecks" hailing from backwater places and being ignorant as fuck), I only remembered at the time I've seen it applied to politically conservative, chauvinistic, pro-gun/hunting-is-a-sport, persons from the US southern and mid-western states. You're right. It doesn't apply to Dean Winchester. Dean Winchester is only an stereotype of a good "all-American" macho guy, love of apple pie included; but not a redneck.

Second: I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the overly-negative reaction towards the "USian" denonym, but I also kind of expected better from F!S? I promise it's not a derogatory term - it just has been coined recently. If I had wanted to stir shit up I'd have called you guys "gringos", now that one is a slur. "USian" is gaining popularity in both sociology and anthropology circles with a pan-Americanist view as a suitable, non-offensive alternative to the use of "America" as a single-nation denonym.

While it's true there are the United States of Mexico and the United States of Brazil... may I please ask you hear me out here? Yes, we call them just "Mexico" and "Brazil" with no problem, but that's because neither country had the gall of apropiating the name of the entire continent to call themselves.

We're not world powers, dude. You are. Have been since the beginning of the Monroe Doctrine, and before that you already had enough of an international political leverage when you became an independent nation, so the name spread, got translated or adapted, and of course the people in Europe and Asia have no beef with you calling yourselves "Americans" - That's the way they knew you since you became independent. They don't care about the name because it's not their continent. But it's ours too! And it's upsetting for us that, since the entire world consumes your mass-media and culture, the name has prevailed for so long.

Replying to

ariakas specifically, I don't get why it's so disturbing a Brazilean/Chilean/Costarrican calling themselves "American". Would it be better if we added "Latin" first? But that would leave out a lot of people from the Caribbean Islands, specifically countries that were part of the so-called "West Indies" who were under the British rule, and we still have a sense of kinship with them. And -sorry to bring this to the table, I swear I'm not trying to make the wank grow further- despite the stuff the US has done to the other countries in the American continent, i repeat we do not single the US out, either. Of course you're "Americans". You're a nation in the American continent. But please do not ask us to call you "Americans" as in "people from the country of America", because there are 35 countries in the American continent.

Edited 2013-10-17 02:23 (UTC)

Hey, as an American -- USian -- I understand what you're saying. I also get why there's a lot of resentment towards the US -- we almost just crashed the world economy again (sorry about Congress, we need to tighten their leash). Yes, you DO single us out, and for good reason. We've got our sticky fingers in just about every country, for better or for worse (with or without the consent of the common population).

Don't pretend "gringo" is a good slur for us, though. Remember, a lot of us are non-white -- and the largest percentage of us will be Hispanic very soon. "Gringo" ignores our incredible diversity.

I do hope the sociologists and anthropologists come up with a better term than "USians." It does not roll off the tongue well like "Canadian" or "Brazilian" which sound liquid and beautiful. Something as ugly-sounding as "USians" will not catch on within the country.

Hey, hello :3 I'm glad someone is reading and understand it. To be honest, I don't actually hope to "converting" anyone to my point. I just want to state it, and signal that there are other voices who disagree with certain hegemonic views.

I didn't say "gringo" was a good slur ^^;; It's just the most usual. We're aware of the diversity, which is the reason "gringo" is seldomly used to refer to any non-white Usian at all. (And when used, it loses the demeaning connotation, because it's not a "white gringo", and it becomes kind of a term of endearment.) You'll never hear someone talking bitterly about "that fucking gringo" if it's about a non-white USian.

"USian" doesn't sound that bad to our ears (I've heard the correct pronunciation is You- Ess-E-an, how were you pronouncing it in your mind?). In any case, I do reckon that maybe the sound rolls on the tongue distastefully for a native speaker. So I also hope we achieve in the future terminology we can all agree on.

There is resentment towards your government(s), not gonna lie, which sometimes spills down to the rest of the nation. But we won't go as far to deny you your status as a part of the American Continent, seriously. Just please acknowledge us. As the song I linked, that talked about our vision of an ideal America with true kinship and solidarity, which showed the flags of all the 35 countries in the continent, including yours.

You're a nation in the American continent. But please do not ask us to call you "Americans" as in "people from the country of America", because there are 35 countries in the American continent.

Yeah, this is exactly why I got into the habit of referring to US Americans as, well, US Americans. It doesn't kill me to type two extra letters to specify which part of the Americas I'm talking about.

I assure you, stuff like you do is very appreciated by us :3 I'm sure one day we all will reach an agreement on the terminology, but in the meanwhile... we just don't want to be erased, that's all. So any effort towards a mutual understanding is awesome.

that's because neither country had the gall of apropiating the name of the entire continent to call themselves.

Really? That's what you're going with? Yes, they're called Americans just to appropriate the name of the entire continent. Fuck's sake.

Why is it okay to respect what you want to be called while, at the same time, it isn't okay to respect what they want to be called?

Uhm, well, I get you wouldn't want to be referred as "The 13 Colonies" forever, but the first time "America" is used to denote a nation instead of a whole continent is when you stated your Declaration of Independence; while the name "America" referred to the continent since 1507, making its appearance in the Cosmographiae Introductio by Mathias Ringmann, to honor Americo Vespucio.

We all had our own names for our own contries. Chile, Perú, Paragüay and Urugüay are all names that stem from indigenous words by the ethnic groups that populated the territories. Venezuela ("Little Venice") Argentina ("Silver-plated"), and Colombia (to honor Cristóbal Colón) were put there by the Conquistadores... Mexico was Mexico way before it became a federated state.

God, even Canada went with a variation of the indigenous name of the place to name themselves.

You took the name of the continent of America, and had enough political and philosophical influence in posterior European history to be acknowledged as "America" (the country); and after that the US went into becoming a World Power and the name got perpetuated around the world. And is it so hard to believe the rest of us feel erasured?

There isn't an American continent. There are two continents: North America and South America. Central America is a term coined to cover the southern part of the North American continent. Educate yourself.

My country is called the United States of America. There aren't many great ways to shorten it to refer to our nationality, but we've settled on "American." To make it abundantly clear, people from this country refer to ourselves as Americans. It is our preferred term. So yes, we do ask that you refer to us as Americans. From my personal point of view, if you also want to refer to yourself as an American, have at it. Ich bin ein Berliner and all that.

You're getting insulting here.

You do realize that I've been talking endlessly about how differently the concept is taught to us? Are you one of those smug USians that feel like the only valid worldview is theirs? I'm not here to make an erasure of your identity. I'm here to prevent your erasure of mine. Because let's be honest, if we put the USA and any other country of this continent in a scale that measured influence, you outweigh even Canada.

"Ich bin ein Berliner"? You sent me to "educate myself". Condescending motherfucking gringo, I have perfect knowledge of the context that sentence was used. I'm not a random citizen of the world deciding to randomly claim a foreign identity for myself. "American Identity" means a different thing here, it's part of my heritage, and the only reason I haven't left this fucking wank already is because I may get anxious about arguing, but I will not let my identity be erased by an overly-privileged butthurt First Worlder that can't even fathom the idea a concept may be subject to different interpretations and wildly depending on historical and geographical context.

YOU go educate yourself. Look around you. +75% of the Internet, the world's greatest library since the Library of Alexandry was destroyed, is in your language. But it's not by a god-given birthright it's this way. If it were about the bigger amount of speakers, we would all be communicating using Chinese-as-a-Second-Language. Now, I suggest you ask yourself the question (if you're capable of critical thinking, at all): Why is everything in English, then? And don't give me an answer like "BECAUSE WE'RE THE BEST".

Pro-tip: The British were the first to expand the numbers of English-speaking people by virtue of colonizing and exploiting the everloving fuck of whatever they could grab in Africa, Asia and Oceania. And now the US... am I expecting too much if I talk about "neo-colonialism", then? Or throw in some big words like "hegemony"?

"Condescending motherfucking gringo"

Gee, you wonder why people think you're being insulting. Every single post of yours is peppered with insults.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uBcq1x7P34

Do educate yourself before spouting off. :D

If you really want to defend the division of South and North America, I hope you also correct everyone who says "Europe" or "Asia" and tell them they should say "Eurasia".

Since, you know, America is considered one (instead of two) continent by political and historical reasons. Just like Europa and Asia are considerer two different continents because of political and historical reasons.

The use of 'redneck' you're thinking of is becoming a more common one. I have a branch of the family that unashamedly self-identifies with the term - we're all in a suburban area, but they use it to refer to the beer/motorcycles/conservatives/etc lifestyle. (I've heard them use the term 'blue, white, and red' - blue-collar white-trash rednecks.) Not the most politically correct of crowds, but they're good people. Providing you don't stand too close to my brothers-in-law during the drunken fireworks lighting ceremony.

Similar to the discussion of 'gypsy' a couple of days ago - I'm aware enough of the negative connotations that I wouldn't use the term in conversation with a stranger, but it doesn't strike me as a knee-jerk insult either.

I'd prefer it if you'd respond to me directly if you intend to address me directly, but alright:

Yes, I understand that it is entirely political, and that it is because you feel that Americans are slighting you by using that term. But that is not and has never been their intent - "people from the United States" have used the term "Americans" to refer exclusively to themselves for centuries, for far longer than most of the aforementioned "35 countries" have even existed. It was not a term intended as a stick in the eye to anyone. It is the common term most everyone uses in English, aside from people from South and Central America hell-bent on making it into a political (as opposed to linguistic, which it is) issue as you have above.

There are two American continents. Again, this is not intended as a slight; this is based on plate tectonics. If man-made water barriers don't count, then the Suez Canal doesn't count either, and Asia, Europe, and Africa are all the same continents. ...Do you insist on calling them all Eurasiafricans? No? Yet you insist that North/South America is somehow unfairly divisive and you should all just be "Americans"? Well, that's terribly hypocritical of you.

Americans "get" to call themselves whatever they want, in their own language, especially if it's a term that has been reserve for them for centuries in that language and is used by most of the world. They can't, of course, force you to use the correct name for them in English if you refuse to - but it would be as boorish, inconsiderate, and culturally imperialistic as them refusing to call you "American" in Spanish.

I'm not an American myself - I'm from Canada - but frankly, fuck that. I'm going to call boorish, inconsiderate cultural imperialism when I see it.

Bottom line: in Spanish, you and I can be whatever you want. In English, I'm not an American. And neither are you.

Oh god I can't. Are you seriously telling me no other people in the American continent (or "Americas", since you insist so much) called themselves Americans EVER IN HISTORY-- I can't with this.

Just look it up, somewhere upwards on the thread I detailed WHO registered the continent as a SINGLE America (despite coastal borders of "Central America" being unknown at the time), in a cartographic map. It was in 1507. Spaniard Juan Ponce de León set foot on Florida in 1513. The ANCIENT colony of Jamestown in Virginia? Founded in 1607, way after everyone acknowledged America-the-Continent. It was never a term ~specially reserved~ for them.

This isn't as simple as a linguistic issue, but I do understand you're a scholar of linguistics and that's your angle to tackle that issue. Now please let's go back to history and sociology? Because words don't appear from thin air.

It's strange the way you speak so passionately about this issue, being Canadian. I knew from years before you were Canadian, but the way you're behaving was making me doubt.

I feel like I'm repeating myself like a broken record here, but I'm not looking to "convert" anyone to my worldview. (Though, not surprisingly, you're doing your best to force me to accept yours). It's just a statement. Not proselytism. "We are here too, this is our identity, and we will not be erased." Indeed, "words mean things". And the interpretation of a concept may vary wildly taking into account the context. Our interpretation is as valid as yours.

Please, pray tell me how a WOC from a Third World Country could be "culturally imperialistic" towards the biggest World Power in the Western world.

Oh god I can't. Are you seriously telling me no other people in the American continent (or "Americas", since you insist so much) called themselves Americans EVER IN HISTORY-- I can't with this.

Obviously not, because I never once said that. I said it has been reserved for them, in English, for centuries. Not "in all languages" "for all of time".

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Now please let's go back to history and sociology?

Please don't resort to personal attacks. If you can't explain what you intend to convey, that's fine, but "study (x subject)" is essentially meaningless, because you have no idea if the person in question is making their argument from a position of ignorance, or if they've studied the areas in question - I have studied a great deal of history, and sociology - and have come to a different conclusion than you did.

Because words don't appear from thin air.

No, they certainly don't. The word "American" certainly didn't. It has a long history of meaning precisely what it means in English.

It's strange the way you speak so passionately about this issue, being Canadian. I knew from years before you were Canadian, but the way you're behaving was making me doubt.

Why would you assume that a Canadian would behave differently on this issue? Were you including us in the "rest of the world" that you implied agreed with you on the issue? We don't. Most Canadians are deeply offended when they're called "Americans". We're mistaken for Americans all the time, but we have our own unique views and culture and do not wish to be subsumed under the title American, because we're not from the USA.

(Though, not surprisingly, you're doing your best to force me to accept yours).

I'm not being any more or less vehement about arguing my viewpoint than you are, friend. I also already said that I can't force you to use any words you don't want to use. Demanding that other people use your terminology and erase what they perceive as their own identity - i.e. Americans calling themselves USians, Canadians calling themselves Americans - is doing a whole lot more than saying "I am here, I exist", a fact which I am certain you're aware.

If you feel that way, though, by all means let's try to change the tone here:

If everyone's interpretation is valid, how would you react to a Canadian telling you not to call them an American, because they are not an American? How would you react to someone from the USA asking you not to call them a USian, but rather an American, because that's the term they prefer? Would you respect that? Or does self-determination only apply to persons from certain nations and not others?

Please, pray tell me how a WOC from a Third World Country could be "culturally imperialistic" towards the biggest World Power in the Western world.

You're demanding that someone change their own name because that's the name you use for them in your culture. Whether or not you have the power to do that - either through political influence on the global hegemony which has some strongly anti-American sentiments in the case of many very influential, wealthy nations or appeals to precedence at a time when the Spanish Empire was the premiere world power, or some mixture of both - remains to be seen, but if you're already seeing "USian" crop up in conversation as you claim, then it might well already be working.

Ultimately: I'm going to call Americans what they want to be called. If they decide someday that USian, or US American, is okay, I'll call them that. Only they get to decide that, though. Not you or I.

And please don't call me an American -_-

Sorry, but I'm exhausted and not at my prime. I can't remember when was the last time I slept, and I wish that were just a figure of speech.

- Where do you learn your sociology matters. Hell, even the political views of the professor end up being relevant - even if you disagree with them from the start. Do you know, for example, that "The Open Veins of Latin America" by Galeano used to be a banned book here during Pinochet's dicatorship, but is now mandatory High School reading?

- Your "American" is not the same than my "American". I told you on other thread of the origins of the word. It wasn't invented by the English. And it's certainly not our fault the way the English just called "America" vaguely their 13 Colonies, instead of checking the damn map.

- Of course Canadians get offended when confused with... I'll call them "people from the USA" and leave it at that for the moment. Because the prevailing association that comes to mind for a Canadian upon hearing "America" is the one they have with their neighbors. And it's NOT a good association for them. (I'm not the most well-versed in Canadian History, but I have heards such glowing reviews from people I trust that have visited there. And it's not only them, Quebec conflict nonwithstanding, you're widely regarded as a kind nation with a goverment that cares about their people. The same cannot be said about the USA.)

If I publicly make a statement like "in our culture, we consider all the people on this continent to be American", and a Canadian gets offended, I will quickly reassure them I'm not referring to the USA, but to the totality of our geography, and the shared experiences of having being places with our own indigenous people that after became colonies under the Powers of that age, and who after, attained freedom either through revolution or peaceful treaties.

(I wouldn't even touch the stuff about mixing races, because I know the statu quo for English and French colonies was to kill or banish the natives, not enslave them and then have half-breed children just to disown and put to work as it happened to us with the Spaniards; so for example that's something we don't have in common.)

As for a "Person from the USA" asking to be called an American, I'd politely present my point, and act depending on the reaction. Civilized conversation is totally possible and desirable. I want people to understand where are we coming from, not force them to adopt a name they dislike. That's not polite. Is like misgendering a trans* person on purpose. (The problem being, we both would be feeling invalidated in our identities.) Truces must be made.

- If you had bothered checking my other answers, you'd know "USian" was propposed at liberal-oriented colleges and social studies circles from the USA. They took our word "Estadounidense" and coined the neologism USian. It was not invented by Latin American people.

PS: We all have our different views and cultures, even inside our cluster of "Latin America + The Caribbean". My mom has brown skin and dark hair, and is very small. She constantly gets mistaken for Peruvian, which angers her to no end - She always snaps to answer she's Chilean and don't you forget it. But when asked: "Mom, are we Americans? And are the Peruvian also Americans?", her answer is yes, and then we start enthusiastically talking about Andino music and traditions we share with the Peruvians. We don't have the best relationship with Perú, and we can argue for hours who invented pisco (or does it better), but only the most nastily racist people here claim that we are nothing like the Peruvians. As if we didn't share all our northern culture with them.

Edited (fixing for typos oh god I need to sleep) 2013-10-17 08:04 (UTC)

I understood it the first time with the typos - go to bed ^^;

You've given me a lot to think on. I'm still not entirely sure I agree with you, but I'll give it some consideration. I doubt USian will catch on outside strongly liberal academic circles, but US American might. Ultimately, if you can convince people from the US to adopt the new terminology, obviously, I'll use it until then... I think a fair truce would be calling people from the US "Americans" if that's what they want to be called, but also calling people from other parts of the Americas "American" if they wish to be called that (though I don't understand what's offensive about "South/Central/North American"? "American", as mentioned, is offensive to Canadians, but "North American" is not).

Wouldn't be the first word to have two meanings. That way nobody's identity is being erased.

(no subject)

lynx - 2013-10-17 08:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

ariakas - 2013-10-17 09:04 (UTC) - Expand

People are giving you shit for using 'USian' because it's obnoxious. People from the USA are called Americans because that's how English demonyms work. People from the United Mexican States are Mexicans, people from the USA are Americans, people from the Republic of Chile are Chileans, people from the Federal Republic of Germany are Germans, people from the French Republic are French, people from the Russian Federation are Russian.

The pattern is pretty simple and holds true for every nation on the planet when speaking English.

The reason people are upset with you is because "American" is how the people from the US have referred to themselves for hundreds of years. You wouldn't be very appreciative if everyone started calling Chileans 'Repubs' or something, would you? You'd probably think that was kind of bullshit. Especially if it was used in a negative sense as USian generally is.

(And no, I'm not American and I don't particularly like America. English isn't even my first language. But I've seen USian used as a pejorative often enough on the internet that I find it bothersome, and I can also understand why people would be annoyed with a preachy neologism.)

For the nth time, "USian" was coined in the USA. In liberal-thinking social studies circles and colleges, who proponed a more pan-Americanist view that agreed with the sentiment of the people in The Americas. And it was NEVER meant to be pejorative. People tend to overreact to it, but that's not the word's fault.

What I've trying to convey is that there are another points of view, that do not lie with the hegemony of the USA, which are equally valid. Specially considering plain numbers 33 vs. 2... but the USA POV wins, just because it's the most powerful nation, and meanwhile the rest of us gets erased.

Would you call people from the Argentine Republic Republicans, then?

Your argument is totally sound, of course.

(Disclaimer: I am European)

First, USian sounds incredibly awkward to me.

Second, the country is called United States of America. It has been the United States of America for centuries. What do you propose we do, get a TARDIS and go convince them to pick something else?

Dude, not now, I'm going to sleep, ok? Just... mull over into your head that *INTENSE DRUMMING... AND SILENCE!* Languages evolve. And so does society.

Have fun looking at the whole thread, I think we touched a lot of the more relevant related issues.

For what it's worth, I prefer the term USian for the same reasons (and... argh, having trouble finding the right words, but my family has been here a loooong-ass time). I remember when I first saw the term used and thought it was brilliant, because using "America" to refer to one country when it's also the name of the continent seemed weird to me.

Thank you.

Last night my Internet died and I couldn't say many things I wanted, but your comment expresses more eloquently what I wanted to say and more.

Specially this: "But it's ours too! And it's upsetting for us that, since the entire world consumes your mass-media and culture, the name has prevailed for so long."

I want to add that I think most people don't realize the mass media made in USA is also consumed in Spanish speaking countries and it's affecting the culture and language too.

It's pretty common in my country, for example, for Obama to be called "el presidente de America" or "El presidente Americano" which it's disturbing since in Spanish they could easily say "el presidente de Estados Unidos" o "el presidente Estadounidense".

The connotations are worrisome too and I think that is not too much to ask for US Americans to at least understand why many of us dislike calling them "Americans" and wish for another term that is more respectful for all the people in the continent.

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