[ SECRET POST #2483 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2483 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #355.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

a lot of straight/cis allies that ~come to the rescue end up making it about their own feelings than those of people who are actually being hurt and oppressed by homophobic and transphobic behaviour/actions. there's a difference between using your privilege and institutional power to make a difference and using it to boast about how important you are to the lgbt community because if it wasn't for your support they'd be suffering even more, etc. and the more you analyse ally behaviour the more it becomes evident that a striking amount of them feel this way, whether they realise/acknowledge it or not.

there's support. there's acceptance. and then there's the instance of using these to talk about lgbt issues from your own perspective, as if anybody cares about the first time you met a trans* person or that your uncle is gay, etc. it shows less a concern for us as people and more a concern for yourself, using us as a commodity.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't actually see a lot of people doing this though. I see a lot of people trotting out this excuse all the damn time though.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

perhaps because the people you see complaining about it are paying more attention??

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

Or perhaps there's an echo chamber that makes every instance of a 'bad' ally semm like 100.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

when you are being harmed by shitty allies it's kind of hard not to notice.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, someone sharing their own thoughts and perspective is exactly like stabbing me in the face. We can't shut out allies just because they want to be a part of our group. Making it "about them" for part of a conversation isn't harmful unless you're a thin skinned egomaniac.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

if they drown out lgbt voices then yes, it is harmful. the "straight allies" people look down on are not allies in general, not people who express acceptance of us without butting in. the "allies" people look down on are those that more or less wedge themselves into the lgbt community for personal gains, be that feeling "left out" of a movement not tailored exclusively for them (god forbid) or wanting to play hero or whatever. those people are the whiny ones, the ones that don't get why "straight allies" are hated because they don't get the difference between being supportive and being intrusive.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[diet_poison]

Do a large proportion of people really do this though?

I find it hard to believe that it's really a big enough number to start painting all allies with the same brush.

And of course maybe your experiences =/= others etc etc.

Might also depend on where you are and what your perspective is...

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

if lgbt people are angry at allies in general for permitting the behaviour of a few allies then rather than defending yourself as an ally you should instead call out the shitty allies that are making us so uncomfortable.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

We are mot a monolith and you're beimg far more harmful than an ally I've ever seen.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

"there's support. there's acceptance. and then there's the instance of using these to talk about lgbt issues from your own perspective, as if anybody cares about the first time you met a trans* person or that your uncle is gay, etc."

So, "sit down and shut up" is what you're saying basically. Have fun trying to be an accepted member of society while simultaneously isolating yourself from the very people you need on your side.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

it's worked out fine for me so far. if people are comfortable with our existence then we can do the rest on our own. we don't need allies to do that for us. if telling you to know your place in our own struggle makes you lose support for us then you were never a real "ally" to begin with. idk y'all always get so mad about this issue, it's not your issue. lgbt have every reason to be wary of you and to want nothing from you except your acceptance.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

Except people WON'T be comfortable with you as long as you treat people like shit because you don't like the way they're championing your cause.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

logical fallacy. i'm personally not treating anybody like shit, but i have no issue putting allies in their place if they start speaking over me on lgbt issues.

but yeah i can't imagine how terrible it must feel to be treated like shit for who you are and what you believe in.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

I have never, in any circumstance, heard a person sincerely talking about "putting [someone else] in their place" in which the person doing the talking didn't come across as a giant asshole. It's not a mindset that achieves anything positive, regardless of how virtuous the goal being championed.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

if that means reminding straight people that my spaces and my movement is not theirs then i'm completely fine with sounding like an ass

eta: i want to clarify my position on this bc i'm getting a lot of objections to what i've said so i think y'all are misunderstanding me, because what i'm saying really isn't that bad unless you're straight and you think lgbt issues should be all about you.
i don't have a problem with straight people, or straight allies. i welcome the support; knowing i'm accepted by my peers does a lot in the way of making me feel comfortable in areas that aren't guaranteed to be safe for me. but i see why some people do have a problem with straight allies, specifically those who lose sight of who these issues affect (ie. not them). it can be really aggravating to see somebody co-opt a movement in the name of alliance, particularly when their mindset is more or less "well SOMEBODY has to help these poor queers out, and i'm the only one who can do it." unfortunately some opinions do boil down to this, and it happens more often than you seem to think. as a queer person i am hyperaware of these kind of intentions, and i'm far from alone. if you are not queer and you support us, but you don't understand why some allies are distressing us, just keep that in mind. not all of us view privileged people as some beacon of hope that we would otherwise be lost without. the support is welcome. the means by which support is expressed matters though.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[ill_omened]

"MY movement"

Haha, absolutely pathetic.

This is why I've no damn respect for ally policing.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

if allies aren't harassed on the streets or beaten/killed/raped or at risk of losing their housing or their jobs or their basic human rights just for being who they are then they really have zero right to claim lgbt movements are "joint" movement or a movement of their own.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

yeah
I know righteous fury feels good, but don't make it about yourself. If you drown out people who actually have the issue, then you're doing something wrong.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

I get what you're saying, but... we're not a community, a tradition, or a way of life. We are just a bunch of random people that maybe have one thing in common: our alternative sexuality.

Honestly, if an ally votes in support of LGBT rights and is proud of his/her LGBT support, and even volunteers time, effort and money to help spread awareness... I honestly don't give a shit if they like to talk a lot. Who cares? I need allies for equality. The world needs people to be passionate and help out for causes that don't even actually affect them personally. That's awesome. Good for allies. I find SJWs more annoying when they talk about "their" cause being appropriated or taken over by stupid straight allies. I'm like, you're the kind of person we don't need championing our rights. They're the kind of people that are alienating others, and I want nothing to do with them.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

we are a community tho? unless you're using some other definition, but the lgbt community is called a community for a reason. and even if we weren't i'm not sure what that has to do with my point, could you explain?

some lgbt folks are like you; they don't care what comes out of an ally's mouth as long as they give resources to the community. i get that line of thinking but i personally would rather an "ally" keep their time and money and "support" if they were only going to use the outcome to lift themselves up. in the end, if an "ally's" intentions are not to benefit the lgbt community and the lgbt community alone, if their opinions are not in favour of lgbt rights, then they are no better than the individual who outright objects to lgbt rights. i can't even count the amount of times i've heard an "ally" spew some transphobic binary-normative bullshit without considering the fact that lgbt issues extend beyond gay marriage. i call them fake allies bc they have no idea what they're talking about more often than not. real allies are fine as long as they understand their purpose is not to carry us when we are capable of walking on our own. but not everybody who claims to be an ally is a real ally, and that's where the whole "i hate straight allies" thing comes in. people who say that don't usually mean all allies everywhere, just the ones that are hurting them, or not care about them, etc.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

At best, we're a group of many overlapping communities that share some common concerns but not others. Witness the cheerfulness with which some 'LGBT' people ignore trans* or bi issues.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

oh yea i feel that. i guess by community i meant more like a group of people that shares a common demographic

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[(Anonymous)]

"in the end, if an "ally's" intentions are not to benefit the lgbt community and the lgbt community alone, if their opinions are not in favour of lgbt rights, then they are no better than the individual who outright objects to lgbt rights. "

I don't want to sound like an ass, but how does that make any sense? Helping others in a way that also benefits yourself is not in any way similar to outright harming others. It's just a little more selfish than purely helping others without benefit. I would always, ALWAYS take a well-meaning, if a little self-absorbed, ally over an actual bigot. Bigots are not usually willing to change their minds. Allies are; even the ones who see everything in how it pertains to them. They're the people who DO want to get it right, usually.

I've encountered almost as much denial and bullshit from people within the LGBT community (well, minus the B) for being bi as I've encountered outside of it. There's also a fuckload of transphobia as well. It's not exactly a tight-knight community. It's more a label, a random grouping. Sort of like "atheists".

"i call them fake allies bc they have no idea what they're talking about more often than not."

Ignorance is not necessarily malicious and this line of thinking is pretty dangerous IMO. It can and should be taught. I was ignorant about a lot of issues regarding racism in my country before I learned more about it. It wasn't that I was ever intentionally and maliciously racist, it's that I wasn't aware of the full extent of what it meant to face racism in my community because I never had to deal with it.

It takes a lot of dedication and empathy to even understand part of what another individual faces when those struggles are invisible to the privileged. Those that are willing to try and get it should NEVER be discouraged from understanding because they didn't get it 100% right the first time. It doesn't make them fake.

Re: Why do people hate allies so much?

[saku]

re: your first point - i didn't mean it necessary like that. more so i meant that if someone acts in favour of someone else but ONLY does it for themselves, and their benefiting of others only happens to be a side effect of that, then it's fucked up.

"I would always, ALWAYS take a well-meaning, if a little self-absorbed, ally over an actual bigot."
i think most of us would?? that's a compromise when faced with two shitty options though imo.

i'm pansexual and trans so i understand what you mean about internal ignorance within the lgbt community and there's no excusing that but saying that ignorance is bred within lgbt folks doesn't excuse the ignorance in straight/cis people.

"Ignorance is not necessarily malicious"
you're right but it often leads to harmful thoughts or actions done in ignorance. and when allies come into our spaces, spaces meant to be safe for us, in order to "help" us but often end up making our spaces unsafe or uncomfortable, then they need to back off. eagerness to help is not always a virtue, depending on how its handled. i prefer to surround myself, in these spaces, with people who share my experiences, not people who are analysing them from an outside perspective and trying to understand.