fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2483 ]

[ SECRET POST #2483 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2483 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #355.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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i agree but i honestly didn't expect any better, the roma have been viewed in a negative light for a really long time and i'm not surprised at the reactions. i don't condone a lot of the questionable actions/trades taken up in portions of roma populations but the racism is inexcusable. and that's honestly what it comes down to - racism, no matter what people try to tell you about antiziganism and their justifications for their feelings.

This.

"I've had a lot of bad experiences with a group and am therefore careful around them because I can't trust them anymore" still isn't the same as "I've never met a person from that group but I heard they are assholes and should all be hated on".

That's like saying "stop being a sensitive little bitch" when a woman who got assaulted by a man and has problems with men after that.

what are you even talking about

Sorry, I forgot you can't read.

i'm not sure how your reply relates to my original comment ??? i'm not saying people blindly hate all roma despite not having encountered them. i didn't even imply that.

It's discrimination, not racism. And it's well founded for the millions of Europeans who have had personal encounters with Romani. Not all Romani steal and vandalize and terrorize but so many do that it could be fatal to assume that a Romani camp in your village isn't a threat.

it usually is racism though to be honest. most roma are of a specific racial background and if you talk to most antiziganists long enough you'l find that their hate generally boils down to "those damn brown people always lingering on our horizon." i understand viewing a camp nearby as a threat, or being on your guard. anything more than that is inexcusable, imo. a lot of people cross the line.

NAYART

...Have you ever actually seen a Romani caravan? They literally look like everyone else. There is no 'those damn brown people'. It's more 'those damn caravans' because, and I'll say it again, they look as European as everyone else. The skin tone might be more olive than peaches and cream but there's no discernible Other-ness.

It's really not racism. They came from the same genetic pool as most of the people around them. It's discrimination, which is (still bad but) not the same.

...and not entirely unfounded. Yes, there are some who want to live differently and no, they shouldn't be penalized for where they came from. But yeah, the old ways are still very much in full swing in some groups and that's something that people should be wary of.

the vast majority of roma people descend from the middle east/india; it doesn't matter how dark their skin is, they have a relatively specific racial background and discriminating against them as a demographic is consequently racist.

They descend from the middle east alright... thousands of years ago. But they're physically indistinguishable from European population and if you met a regular, hard working, tax paying, tuxedo-wearing Romani at work, it wouldn't even cross your mind that they're Romani, much less discriminate against them for that.

Sorry, no. At least in Finland you can tell the Romani a mile away. They're far darker than "native" Finns. The romani even used to be called "mustalaiset" ("darklings", "blacklings"). (The word is currently considered a slur by most.)
That said, there's quite a gradient of Europeans. I have no idea what your "average European" even looks like.

According to someone up inthe thread, even Eastern Europeans are easy to tell from amile away in Nordic countries, so I'm not all that surprised, but I wouldn't consider that racism.

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:15 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:17 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:20 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:34 (UTC) - Expand

i have to disagree that their racial background has changed to the point where they are indistinguishable from the general european populace, nation depending. some examples:

roma people living in slovakia:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CV4gGi_pewk/TVh_3oDp_nI/AAAAAAAAAXs/GWeb1jzFaOA/s1600/Slovak%2BRoma%2BCommunities.jpg
http://www.positivedeviance.org/images/October%202012/WEB_Roma_SINGHAL_01.jpg

in ukraine:
http://mibridgemi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMG_8009.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Romani_people_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg/747px-Romani_people_Lviv_Ukraine.jpg

in france:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/photo/2010-09/15/13495361_11n.jpg

general populations from slovakia, ukraine and france respectively:
http://www.bodhipath.org/fileadmin/img/centers/kosice.jpg
http://www.cam111.com/uploadfile/newsphoto/2011/0824/6792440173.jpg
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1900-6/photos/1366565773-french-people-protest-against-gay-marriage-in-paris_1980026.jpg

you can do this with nearly any country labeled european. the fact of the matter is that romanies are typically darker-skinned than most european populaces, due to their middle eastern and indian backgrounds. that hasn't changed just because they are nomadic. they tend to have similar appearances ethnically/racially because they largely come from the same place, so no matter where they've ended up - italy, germany, france, what have you - they maintain a distinct identity outside of the general "native" population of whatever country they are in. even if you want to argue that the cause isn't racism, which for some it is not - you have to consider the fact that the romani people belong to their own ethnic group, and discriminating against them by association or due to their ethnic identity is fucked up.

I would've written that post if I had any way with words at all. So +1 to you, I'm 100% with you.

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:00 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-21 23:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-21 23:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:36 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

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Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-21 23:51 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-21 23:20 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-21 23:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

bringreligiontothewamwams - 2013-10-22 12:10 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-22 18:34 (UTC) - Expand

AYART

They don't descend from the Middle East or India. They're called Romani because the bulk of the population that you're talking about come from Romania which is why your insistence on calling them "Roma" is a slur. Seriously.

The people in Egypt are called Christians and they've been where they are for centuries.

Also, you really don't know the definition for "racism". It's not a matter of color - I merely emphasized that to point out that they look like everyone else because they are like everyone else.

Look, rather than weighing on with ill-informed opinions and refusing to listen to anyone who knows information that you lack, why don't you focus on something that you intend to affect? Because, other than shaming Europe in general for not living up to your conceptions of it, you don't seem to want to do anything to help this population - one that you, admittedly, seem to have conflated with several others. Go make a positive difference in your own community. And read some damn history books.

roma isn't a slur. it's never been a slur. the romanies i have had discussions with never once mentioned roma being a slur. some romanies may not prefer the term, which i respect, but i have no source indicating that roma is a slur and unless you can provide one, i will not take your word for it.

anyway, they did descend mostly from india, from what most scholars have deduced by language patterns. many of them immigrated to romania but their origins lie in india. roma as a term largely refers to romani people who hail from romania but as a whole the romanies are most likely to have come from the middle east and south asia. i don't know where you are getting your information but it is grossly incorrect and i suggest you do some more research before attempting to paint me wrong.

you continue to state that romanies look like everybody else but they don't and i've proven that and everybody including myself disagrees with you. might i remind you that insisting you are right doesn't make you so. there is nothing left of this matter to discuss because i refuse to go back and forth with what amounts to "you're wrong" "no you are." you've provided absolutely no sources or evidence of any kind whereas i have so there's that.

europe does live up to my "conceptions" though. i understand it as a region largely wracked by racial and ethnic issues, evident in its treatment of muslims and romanies, among other ethnic/racial groups. every part of the world has its fair share of issues; i am not the one trying to cover those up. it's okay to acknowledge problems in your area, it doesn't necessarily fault you. acknowledging them is the first part of fixing them and is absolutely vital to doing so. the romani people deserve better, no matter what tendencies they have.

also i'm not sure where you're getting the idea that i don't want to help european populations, or that i am not helping my own, as i a definitely am going these things and i've said nothing to indicate otherwise whatsoever. you're presuming on no basis or evidence.

I'm curious: why do you keep saying Roma instead of Romani?

Psst! Saku is American and doesn't know any better.

it's interchangeable with romani. i probably should have just used romani though since roma is also the label of a subgroup within the romani population. i meant it in the first way, as a synonym.

roma is a slur

no, it's not. unless you have a source that tells me otherwise??

other than all the news articles specifically using romani i can't give you sources. i just know it from living around them my whole life. i don't have a url for that.

no roma person i have ever interacted with has ever stated such and i have not seen a single account of this elsewhere. even a net search isn't helping. i don't think you know what you're talking about.

eta: you might have heard that some romanies prefer to not be called roma, since traditionally roma refers to a certain subgroup of romani people, but roma as a term has taken on a dual meaning and, as i said, more recently has been used interchangeably with romani. them not being synonymous is viewed as an outdated viewpoint. i'll look into it though since i don't want to offend anybody by referring to them by something they dislike.

Edited 2013-10-21 23:27 (UTC)

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

(Anonymous) - 2013-10-23 21:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Reading article on that kid that got kidnapped by the romani

saku - 2013-10-24 00:18 (UTC) - Expand

Well in that case lets just call them fucking gypoes and have done with it.

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