[ SECRET POST #2756 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2756 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 076 secrets from Secret Submission Post #394.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets (random images from what appears to be one spammy anon) ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

01. http://i.imgur.com/55z2tyG.png

[miku_hatsune]

I... don't understand the comparison here. Bootlegs are generally looked down upon because they're copies of actual merchandise and typically are complete garbage in quality (ie- 99% of fake nendoroids). Fan stuff is... fan stuff? I've never seen fanstuff made to trick people into buying because they think they're getting the actual thing?

[mekkio]

You have a point.

Though, I think subby is saying more of everyone is making off something they did not create. That bootlegs and fanart are the same on that level.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it's about the trickery, per se, but about the violation of intellectual property that doesn't belong to you. If I were to make Hello Kitty purses and sell them on Etsy, that's technically not legal. People get away with it because it's difficult to enforce, so that gives it an air of legality, but... yeah, still violation of someone else's intellectual property.

[(Anonymous)]

This. There's a big difference between a bootleg product that can take sales away from legitimate merchandise and something that everyone involved knows is fan-made.

Also, a lot of times I've found that fan-made stuff fills a hole, in a sense. One of my favorite canons has almost no official merchandise, so it's not like I even have the option of purchasing stuff for it (which I would if it existed, for the record). If I want anything, I have to buy fan-made items.

So it's not hurting the creators because there IS no official merchandise to purchase instead.

[(Anonymous)]

I think there's also a difference in the amount of work and effort one has to put in for each. Bootlegs (if we're talking about things like movies and anime) require very little effort to produce. As opposed to fan stuff, some of it is down right intricate as fuck. Some of it would've taken hours to make. And personally, I'm alright with someone selling their fan work on the basis of the amount of work put into it.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel a bit the same. It does feel kind of sketchy because it IS profiting off of someone else's intellectual property. What bothers me is the lack of acknowledgment of this more than anything else tbh.

[(Anonymous)]

it's the same if the fanartists are trying to pass off their work as the real deal, but if not, I don't see too much of a comparison. They're both making a profit off of someone else's intellectual property, but only one is tricking people into buying stuff.

[(Anonymous)]

I often wonder about the legality of selling fanart - and even of professional comic artists selling sketches of characters they didn't create at cons and stuff, I mean, is that legal by virtue of being paid to draw comics for the copyright holders? - especially wrt how selling fanfiction is seen a such a problem. Still, making fanart and selling it just isn't the same to me as straight up copying something and selling it - as was said above, there's no deception involved. It's also not quite as close a competition between the fanart and the official merchandise because there's always going to be something different about the fanart that might appeal to you more or less, but a bootleg of something official is in direct competition with something that is theoretically putting money in the hands of the creators.

I'm not a lawyer, but here's how I think it works

[(Anonymous)]

As for fanart: As I understand it, rights to original art always go to the original artist, regardless of trademarks held by someone else.

Merchandise...yeah, there could be a trademark issue there. But it's up to the trademark holder to take legal action themselves. Many times they may not be competing directly with fan artists, or want to let a low-volume fan artist slide.

[dinogrrl]

Even if the artist works for the company they're doing fanart of, it's still technically illegal for them to sell the fanart, unless they have the rights to those characters.

It's bad PR to go after them for selling sketches at cons though :p.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the legality comes down to what the original owners are willing to allow. There are companies that are fine with people selling fan works because it's good free marketing for them (as long as it doesn't fuck with the brand), it doesn't really cut into their profit margins (that is if it's an individual, not another company doing it), and it makes people like you more than if you were going around suing everyone in sight.

Also in regards to official vs. fan made there are lots of collectors out there who will only want official merch because it has more value to them.

[(Anonymous)]

This is correct, but there's also a longstanding tradition in comics (as in since the 1930s) that the artists get to make and sell drawings of trademarked characters, but the companies can say if they consider something inappropriate or if they wish to use a particular image. Some artists end up getting work from posting their (technically trademarked) work online.

e.g. People selling actual porn probably would be in trouble but full-frontal naked Gambit online by his series artist was okay and lots of barely-clothed porn poses are fine.

[(Anonymous)]

While you can't disagree with this, because it IS someone else's copyright after all whether they sell as it fan work or bootlegs, nothing is going to change in artist alleys any time soon. The fact is that fan stuff sells most, if an artist has an equal amount of original and fan work, chances are the fan stuff will sell better.

You could say that artists should stop selling fan stuff, but at the moment, without it, some of them wouldn't be able to even be at these shows and still cover their travel/table/hotel costs. Until the buyers want original content more, I don't think anything will change.

[(Anonymous)]

Yep this. It's really hard to take the moral high ground when it means not having the money to afford going to a convention at all (tables are super expensive, printing art and other merchandise is a huge cost, traveling to the convention cost... to just break even at a convention I have to sell a lot.) It's even more difficult when you see professionals at every table doing it.

You may think then, "Well don't go to the convention?" But half of having a successful career in art is making connections, and industry people go to conventions and seek out new talent. Typically they don't care if you're selling fanart, they want to see what your skill level is.

Fanart is a great way to advertise your own art, I've gotten real job offers after people saw my fanart, I know other people who have gotten the same.

There are also legal ways to sell fanart, if you do a parody or can prove fair use. Copyright law isn't as cut and dry as most people think it is. Major companies often don't respect the copyrights of individual artists either (Disney has often stolen from artists who don't have the money to fight back.) So really, small time fanartists selling a 10 dollar print at a con is not the major problem.

Wait, I'm confused.

[funyarinpainahat]

I thought OP was saying that non-creators ripping off the original content and non-creators ripping off fanart are pretty much the same thing, but people make ripping off fanart to be more of a crime. Is that not what is being said?

Re: Wait, I'm confused.

[littlestbirds]

I don't think that's what they mean because I've never seen anyone refer to fanart as the fanartist's IP. IP refers to the characters and settings the fanartist is borrowing. Are you in a fandom where bootlegs aren't considered morally sketchy?

[littlestbirds]

I'm with you on bootlegs but I'm not sure about fanart.
It's not pretending to have come up with the ideas, it's sold because the original rights holder isn't fulfilling the demand, and they never *will* fulfil the demand because the fan interpretations are infinitely varied and fundamentally different from how they want to market their material. It's not in their interest to legitimize a bunch of tea blends with chibi slash fanart on them (Are people morally suspect for wanting cute tea?) It is in their interest to cultivate a consistent official brand along with a passionate and creative fan base.

And just continuing that train of thought, what about fandoms out of copyright? Sherlock Holmes? is selling fanworks immoral? intellectual property protects the profits of the original creators. If the original creators are dead, or have decided that it benefits them to leave their legal options open... why do you care?

[dinogrrl]

Technically yes, they're all illegal usage of characters these people don't have rights to (either trademark or copyright, whatever the case may be). And yeah, ethically shaky. I've done a fanart commission once, and I enjoyed it but it just left a weird feeling on me, so I've never done one since. And I don't commission others for fanart. I just don't want to deal with any potential legal complications, unlikely as they may be to actually happen.

This [selling of fanworks] seems to be a huge portion of the fandom convention experience. It's honestly a big reason I haven't gone to many cons...I'd love to hang out with other fans for a weekend but I feel like I'd be missing out on a lot since I'm not into buying/selling fanworks. :/

[otakugal15]

Fan stuff is completely different from bootlegs, mainly in that, much of the fan stuff I've seen for some fandoms far exceed the quality of licensed merch (looking at you MLP).

Bootlegs, however, can be bad in quality, though every now and then I'll see awesome animu plush of old favorites that make me want them. Our locally owned anime shop has a few for Sailor Moon. Sometimes bootlegs pass off so well I still want them despite not being official, but some times...like Monster High knock offs and shit, they LOOK bad and feel bad and the companies that make them should fucking feel bad for even doing it.

edit: Talking legality....well...bootlegs/knock offs try to be "vague" sometimes or name them differently to keep the legality of it off. Fanart stuff can cross lines, but I don't usually have an issue with it. Bootlegs, however, I do when teh quality is fucking shit.

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're not understanding the unspoken rules of the art world, which really has nothing to do with trademark or copyright law.

Basically, if you don't claim something is your own, and you don't directly copy someone else's work (like on Bootlegs you'll see official artwork that was just cut and pasted onto a cell phone) and it's rare someone will come after you. Fanart that can be proven to fall under fair use is completely legal (that's usually your parodies and crossovers.) If a fanartist isn't doing a parody, they may be in more shakey ground, but if it's their own original work they can still claim it on some level (like for instance, if a bootlegger tries to take that fanart, the artist of it can tell them to take it down.)

Don't confuse trademark with morals though, in the history of art, copyright is a fairly new thing. Art has always been about being inspired by other people's stories, the fact that we've now attached the name "fanart" to this seems to have formed some new opinions about it. Yeah there's always going to be things we feel are sketchy, or something we think an artist shouldn't do... but it's not black and white.

[(Anonymous)]

Aren't most things in crane games licensed anyways?

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, it totes doesn't matter how much time the artist spent on it, they should just give it to you for free!

Let's be honest, that's always what this is actually about, IME. It's about some butthurt baby wanting fan merch for free and trying to find a way to guilt people into it.

[(Anonymous)]

well here's one moral difference: the fan-made products aren't likely to be the product of slave and/or child labor in China, like the cheap bootlegs

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think they're the same thing, but I think they're equally pretty skeevy. Single pieces aren't going to hurt anyone but mas producing products and prints could. Unless you're an artist that has worked for the creators in the past like Comic artists making prints for cons.