fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2795 ]

[ SECRET POST #2795 ]

⌈ Secret Post #2795 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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02.

[Law & Order: Criminal Intent]

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03.

[Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers]

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04.

[Jeeves and Wooster]

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[Yahtzee/Zero Punctuation]

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06.

[Markiplier]

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07.

[Jackie Chan Adventures]

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08.

[The Parent Trap]

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09.

[Alexander]

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10.

[Starsky and Hutch]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 012 secrets from Secret Submission Post #399.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Aww I actually enjoyed it? I thought it could've been paced a little better and tweaked here and there, but I don't get the hate.

Who is Prue?

It's interesting, because I read Shadow as white. My spouse, who is Native American, read Shadow as Native American. I think it's a testament to Mr. Gaiman's skill as a writer that the character that is meant to represent all humans, is seen as white by a white person and Native American by a Native American.

The subtleties of the African American experience might also escape those readers who aren't American. Seeing as race issues tend to vary based on where you are.

As long as you at least try. The problem is the people who don't.

Really? I thought for sure the conclusion was in sight. Interesting. Hopefully the movie will make Naruto fans happy!

....I hope you're being sarcastic, but since this is the internet, I really can't tell.

Maybe, but an off-hand mention of a character having sickle-cell is much more likely to imply the character has African or Mediterranean ancestry, since there was nothing to imply it was an unusual case. Taken together with the guard's racist remarks at the beginning (I don't know why people are looking at these separately, expect that it lets them say 'but not all--!' more easily), it's a PRETTY DAMN BIG CLUE that Shadow isn't White.

But that doesn't really make sense.

Can I imagine me, Chardmonster, enjoying gin? Not really. I just don't like it.

Can I imagine the act of enjoying gin is pretty similar to how I enjoy bourbon? Absolutely! Both are liquor.

I guess I'm saying I don't understand this disconnect. It's not as if romance is that alien if you swap the genders. We aren't talking about different species here.

But you don't need to imagine feeling it to get it.

Clearly this is the level of explicitness some people need in order to not default to white: http://youtu.be/WFY2kJ96jNY

I used to love JRPGs, but... either they've changed or I have. The love is gone. I find them mostly tedious.

I fell out of reading back when I was an undergrad and had too much school-related shit to do, but I've since gotten back into it.

I mean, not everyone has to like old movies, even putting aside the sexism and etc

I find it strange that you care so much if your friend will or won't watch what you happen to like

don't feel shame in being a markiplier fan for whatever reason, he's one of the better LPers out there. he's a sweetie, appreciative of his fans, always doing charity streams and etc. the fact that he's ridiculously cute and has a great voice is a bonus.

I don't want to spoil your lofty amusement, but not everyone who watched JCA also watched his live action movies, so how were we supposed to know?

"Withholding in the sense that Shadow is the POV character but doesn't seem to self-identify by race..."

Why is that "withholding" instead of "business as usual"? I don't know about you, but I don't go through my day thinking to myself, "Here I am, a Chinese-American woman going to the store to get some milk..." or "I, a person of Chinese ancestry, am about to check my e-mail..."

"... which reinforces the validity of the first thing he said about it."

... except that you can't take what he says at face value for the very reasons already covered. Shadow isn't speaking freely and openly to a neutral stranger, he's reluctantly engaging in conversation with a hostile prison guard who has the power to hurt him. So the first thing he says about his race is to be vague-- not because his race is unknowable, but because he very wisely doesn't want to engage a hostile, racist person.

Let me tell you something. If I'm walking down the street and a big angry guy comes up to me and says, "What are you, anyway? Some kind of slanty-eyed chink? A paki? Are you a gook or something?", are you seriously going to blame me for not being frank with him and saying, "Why yes, good sir, I am Chinese!" If I don't come out and state my ethnicity, is my ethnicity now in doubt? Without taking into consideration the context?

Now, I have more freedom than Shadow. I can perhaps get away from my hostile interrogator if I can stall him long enough to reach a place of safty. Shadow does not have that option because he's in a prison and anything but a very, very careful reaction could get him punished or delay his release, something he absolutely does not want. So he'll give a noncommittal answer and try not to give the guard any excuse to come down hard on him.

Is Gaiman's handling of race weirdly indirect? Yes, that's arguable. I think Gaiman wanted to make Shadow a POC, but he wanted it ambiguous enough that if you didn't pick up on the subtle details, your interpretation was different. I think he might've done it for several reasons. One, because the book isn't about Shadow's race on his human side, it's about his heritage from Odin. Two, so people who missed the details, assumed he was white and later found out differently might stop and think about why they'd assume someone is white when they're never explicitly told so, especially when they've failed to pick up on cues that Shadow isn't white.

I'm a POC and also a writer. Is that how I'd do it? Probably not. Especially since Gaiman is famous and this character is well known. But I wouldn't presume to judge how explicit or implicit other writers "should" be about the race of their characters, and I'm not going to view it negatively if they choose to do it as Gaiman has because I think I understand his motives and they make sense to me in the context. As a writer, I think that's all you can do-- try to write in a way that makes sense to you and hopefully your readers.

For the record, I never thought you were angry or defensive, but some of the people in this secret thread have been.

"But why should it be a detail we have to read for carefully & look for clues?"

It... isn't? I mean, you aren't obligated to read anything carefully if you don't want to. (Though obviously that's going to significantly impact your understanding of whatever it is you're reading.) But if you're asking why it's not stated directly in plain language, i.e. "Shadow is a man of mixed race", then... I don't really understand. Stories often contain details that aren't explicit, that's part of the point in reading them and figuring out what's going on. You might as well ask why Gaiman doesn't come right out and say that Low-Key is the god Loki instead of letting people make that connection for themselves. Or why Gaiman waits to make that Mr. Wednesday = Odin connection. Or why Gaiman doesn't put in a footnote that says, "Mr. Nancy is actually Anansi, a West African trickster god who often takes the form of a spider." Why doesn't he simply tell us that Hinzelmann is the reason why the children of Lakeside are vanishing and that Hinzelmann too is a mythological figure instead of the kindly, helpful man he appears to be on the surface? Why not state upfront what all the mythological identities of all the characters are?

So we circle back to your question.. what does he accomplish by having the readers "read carefully & look for clues?" That's just how books and stories work: some details are plain, some aren't. The discovery and grasping the significance through your own efforts is part of the fun, surely.

If you can afford it, why not buy the audio book versions of his novels that he reads aloud? Then you'd have several hours' worth of him talking on top of the videos.

If they're too expensive, then please disregard this comic, but if not, it may be a worthwhile investment for you :)

I wish I could turn off the "UGH SEXISM" portion of my brain, because it spoils many things that I otherwise like. But I haven't been able to figure out how to turn it off. So if I want to watch the whole movie and not just skip to the pretty dancing scenes, I have to accept a certain amount of stewing.

You know, I read Shadow as ambiguous (which, no, does not exclude being white but does reduce the chances), but I really hate this argument. Because it's not just dark-skinned people who get these questions, and I feel like people weaken their own argument when they say it. Now many inclined towards a white-centric view who may have reexamined their thoughts will remember their relative who doesn't fit that mold* and carry on in their ignorance.

*My mother (and to a less extent my sister) are asked about their heritage a LOT. The most common question is if they are First Nations/specific tribe, but it's not exclusive. We have a couple very distant relations who are first nations (like 6 generations back), but they are white for all intents and purposes. Their skin is not dark and none of their features individually scream anything other than our very white-even-by-white-standards European. Some people just have a look to them that screams OTHER for no tangible reason. Shadow was actually pretty interesting in this regard- the part mentioned upthread made me think HE didn't know what he "was" and the unknown element came from his father's side. Which turns out to be true in a way, but not in the way I first thought.

Honestly, "his mother had sickle-cell" feels less like a 'damn big clue' and more like a 'vague, subtle hint'.

I definitely think that people should have figured out he wasn't white from the dialogue with the guard.

But when I read that she had sickle-cell, I just assumed it was meant to imply that Shadow's mom was too sick to take care of him a lot as a kid. Hell, I always knew Shadow wasn't white, and it didn't occur even to me, until this thread, that his mother's chronic illness could be in any way relevant to his mother's race/ethnicity.

I understand, that for a lot people, sickle-cell is a "black" disease - but that connection just does not exist for me. Diseases and medical conditions aren't that racialized for me, and I expect that the same goes for a lot of other people out there, including a lot of readers of American Gods.

NAYRT

That's one of my favourite clips of them. Thanks for posting the link, it's been years since I last watched it. :)

I was talking about 'white people have racism wired'

+1 from me too on the bike thing.

I wish I wasn't so much of a wuss. There's nothing like cycling, it just makes you feel so free. I just really don't want to risk injury again. :/

Actually, since a lot of our girls had plastic plates, we actually hung them from the clothes line.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

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[ SECRET POST #2795 ]

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Re: Naruto-Baby bye bye bye (spoilers)

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Re: Finding it hard to identify with people/characters of a different sexual orientation?

Re: Finding it hard to identify with people/characters of a different sexual orientation?

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Re: What is something you enjoyed doing,but no longer do?

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Re: What is something you enjoyed doing,but no longer do?

Re: Kitchens and whatnot