[ SECRET POST #2888 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2888 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 060 secrets from Secret Submission Post #413.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 (rape) - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

Kinda being built off secret #4...

So the Bechdel test is a pretty popular (though very flawed) test for female characters in media. My issue is that if you have a main male character it very often causes failure due to the simple fact that if the main character is present, it often hampers women's discussions since he's going to be included or being talked about (not always, but quite often nonetheless).

Wouldn't a better alternative be to test whether there are any characters in a film or work that don't HAVE to be female by traditional Hollywood standards? Or, in other words, are there any female characters that aren't presented as girlfriends/mothers?

To give an example: in all of the Star Wars films, basically almost every character that is female (and all major female characters) MUST be female due to her role in the story.

Shmi (Anakin's mom) had to be female so that she could give birth to him
Padmé had to be female to be Anakin's love interest/give birth to Luke and Leia
Leia had to be female because she's Han Solo's girlfriend
Padmé's handmaidens had to be female to double for her
Beru Lars had to be female since she's Owen's wife

There are a few exceptions: there's the bounty hunter and the Queen in Episode II. Then there's Mon Mothma whose role conceivably could have been filled by a man. But that's really about it.

I think it'd be an interesting test because it shows how works only really use the BARE minimum women they can get away with. And always fill in the generic roles with men.

When you look at the Marvel films, for instance, so many of the roles for women are roles that (to fit Hollywood traditions) have to be played by women. Whereas roles by men could conceivably be played by either men or women. There's no reason, for instance, that Bruce Banner's story couldn't be re-written with a woman as the lead. But you couldn't have Jane be a man unless you break with Hollywood conventions.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[comradesmiler]

And in regards to your example, what about TCW?

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I do not watch The Clone Wars so, unfortunately, I can't comment on that.

I was just thinking the other day about how it seems like the majority of female characters in a lot of films couldn't be made male without offending conservative America's delicate sensibilities. Then I read the secret so I thought it might a somewhat relevant topic.

It just seems like so very many of them are mothers/girlfriends/wives. And, more importantly, defined in a very real way by that role. Whereas it seems like it's a lot rarer for a male character's marital status to matter.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

This is an interesting idea, I like it.
And the Bechdel Test is limited. It is a great way to point out the usually limited presence of female characters in movies, but I feel like people rely on it too much to discern whether a movie is "feminist" or not.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

The Bechdel test isn't there to test if a movie is feminist. It is there to test if it fails to be misogynist. Sadly far too many movies and shows fail to be not misogynist.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree. There are films that could not have any female characters and not be misogynist. Military films, for example, depending on the length of time we follow the characters. If everything happens over the course of a week in the trenches, it wouldn't be surprising at all that there's no women.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

It's neither, but it's closer to being a test of feminism than lack of misogyny. Women talking about men or there being only one woman (who may be the main character, and interesting and well-written) doesn't by any stretch mean the writers hate women.

most people don't even know the origins

[insanenoodlyguy]

The bechdel test is literally from a comic. It is nothing more or less then the test that the author's insert uses to determine if she'll go see the movie or not.



It's a good point made and it's interesting but people on all sides have made it a lot more since.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[anonymous4]

What annoys me is that -- if I've understood it right -- two female cops talking about catching a male perp would fail the test; two women raving about the latest washing powder would pass.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I like my test better.

Those two female cops are just presented as officers -- they could be of ANY gender and the scene would work.

Whereas you couldn't have two men raving about the latest washing powder without breaking Hollywood conventions. And that shows how limited those women's roles are.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[aboutelle]

You're right, but that's not the point.

The Bechdel test was never meant to judge an individual movie. A movie passing because two women talk about washing powder doesn't mean it's a feminist movie just as a movie that fails the test because the female cops only talk about catching the male perp can certainly be feminist. The purpose it to apply the test to a bunch of movies (like all movies hitting the theaters this year) and look at the percentage of movies that fail to reach this incredibly low bar. Because many movies don't even fail because the female characters only talk about men; they fail because they don't even have two named female characters just one token chick, or they have two women but they completely revolve around the male characters and only talk to them and never to each other.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

The point of the test is that it's the bare minimum. That's literally it.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I just felt it could be an interesting alternative.

And it could be applied to POC as well. To see whether there are any roles for POC characters that aren't stereotypes, for example.

It's subjective, but I figured it might be an interesting thought experiment.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

How would you count have to be a woman though? Would the only token female on a team count? And when is someone only there to be the girlfriend as opposed to only there to be the boyfriend?

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I would say that if the majority of a character's screen time/character arc revolves around a romantic relationship, then they're just there to be girlfriend, especially if it's at the expense of more interesting plot points.

Like, I love Leia, don't get me wrong, but it pisses me off that she's never shown reacting to Darth Vader being her father. She just seems to accept it, even though he tortured her twice and she has a far deeper history with him than Luke.

Instead, we have her dealing with Han and then reassuring him at the end that Luke's no competition. That's the kind of stuff I mean.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say that someone like Katara is presented as "the girlfriend" because even though Aang definitely has a crush on him (and she definitely likes him), it's not anywhere close to taking up the majority of her screen time and character arc.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[anonymous4]

Two of the most iconic female characters -- Cathy Gale in The Avengers and Ripley in Alien -- were originally written as men but played by women with no changes to the script.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

The Bechdel test is a joke from a comic strip that has blown way out proportion.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[cbrachyrhynchos]

People put too much stock into the Bechdel Test.

Is there an alternative? Certainly, do a deep dive, analysis, and write a full analysis of the work in question.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm going to protest the Leia example.

Leia didn't have to be female. In fact, the roles of "Han's Girlfriend" and "Luke's Twin Sister" were not conceived or set in stone until Return of the Jedi. So for at least A New Hope she could have been a man, which could have been really funny actually.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

My personal test is if there is no good story based reason for a character to be male, then they should not be male. Sick of the "Default" being men, and sadly I find so few things that meet my criteria.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

You must have a lot of fun being too virtuous to enjoy anything.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

What do you consider a good reason? Previous canon/adaptation? Career more likely to have a male majority? Or is "need for man-candy" good enough?

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

My issue is that if you have a main male character it very often causes failure due to the simple fact that if the main character is present, it often hampers women's discussions since he's going to be included or being talked about (not always, but quite often nonetheless).

Eh, I dunno about this, other male characters seem to manage to talk to other male characters (and female characters, for that matter) besides the hero, about things other than the hero, because there's almost always more than one male character on the speaking cast, so there's more opportunities for them to interact with each other in various small ways. Plus, there's that even with a female main character, stories still manage not to pass the Bechdel test far more often than they fail to have dudes interacting. There's much more hampering female interaction in media than who the star is.

With the example you give, none of those female characters actually needed to show up on screen or have speaking roles to serve their purpose as mothers and lovers. The bare minimum that media gets away with is much lower than that, if the number of movies where female characters die in a flashback to motivate the hero, or where the girlfriend's role consists of kissing the hero goodbye before his adventure, are any indication.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

The Bechdel test is fine for what it is.

Your test is also fine for what it is.

You probably shouldn't regard either test as a pass-fail grading for feminist credentials or quality.

That said, I do think it would probably be good if we could bring the Bechdel and reverse-Bechedel tests a little closer in terms of their pass-fail ratios.

Re: Alternative to the Bechdel Test?

[(Anonymous)]

I get where you're going with this, but here's the problem: the value of the Bechdel test is that it's completely objective. Yes, people cite a lot of examples of non-sexist works that don't pass it, but that's completely beside the point. It can't tell you anything about an individual film, but over large numbers it makes the status quo very clear. And it can do that because it's completely objective.

Your proposed test, like the Mako Mori test and others, is subjective. It requires judgment calls for each character, and opens itself up to endless quibbling. For example, Leia isn't Han Solo's girlfriend for the first movie or two, or for that matter, couldn't you just as easily say that Han has to be male because he's Leia's boyfriend? And so on.

There's no quibbling with the Bechdel. More than one named female character, talk to each other, not about a man. Yes, Street Fighter: The Movie passes and Pacific Rim doesn't, but that's not the point and never was.