Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2007-12-30 06:16 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2007-12-30 06:16 pm
[ SECRET POST #359 ]
⌈ Secret Post #359 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS. Also, one possibly triggering image!
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] huh?
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, December 30th, 2007.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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How, exactly, do you think things change by when people "prove" they're worthy? If people are biased against you, and a system is biased against you, while a few might be successful, they will always be viewed as exceptions, at best, and at worst, they'll be ridiculed, questioned, and suffer from trying to leave their designated role. I cannot stress enough that you do not change people's opinions by keeping your head down and trying to win within the system when the system--or culture--itself is flawed.
And no matter how rational it is, if you're complaining, you are viewed as a whiner, a complainer, a trouble maker, and yes, people will get sick of hearing it long before anything changes.
Part of the problem with the whole system is how much women are supposed to see it from the other side--and compromise, and play nice, and work within the fucked up sexist paradigm, which tells them that to succeed, they have to act like a man, and when they act like a man and stand up for what they deserve as human beings, penalizes them for not being feminine enough. I realize it's hard to rip your mind out of this thinking, but part of the point of feminism is that women shouldn't always have to be the ones seeing it from the other side; if men were seeing it from their side to start with, it wouldn't be an issue.
I do think I get what you're trying to say, but it still seems to me to be very much informed by the idea that women have to earn something that men just get, because that's the way it is, and that is very much the problem to start with.
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I am not coherent enough today to put it like this, but yes. Thank you.
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People in general are supposed to compromise and see things from each other's points of view and I admit I'm getting idealistic here, but if both sides would make an effort to actually understand each other, the problem would be resolved. But I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sit down and talk to someone that was basically calling me an asshole and a jerk because I'd have a pretty low opinion of them. If someone came up to me, though, and wanted to talk about how I was treating them (and honestly? A lot of men don't even realize that they're doing it. It's just second nature and I've met some that as soon as it was explained, they were very nice about it and tried their hardest to stop doing certain thing), I think I'd be more inclined to listen.
It sounds idealistic and too slow, but sometimes the best way to accomplish things is the "one person/small group at a time" idea. If you can convince enough of society of something, society will change. How do you think religions spread or, hell, fashion trends? Barring, in the case of religion, holy wars and such.
But it's pretty clear I'm in the minority here, so I'll shut my mouth because I honestly don't feel like arguing the point. Which of course can be taken to mean many different things (including contradicting my whole point) but the real meaning behind it is that my hands are cold and so my typing is rather inaccurate and it's annoying me. Apologies in advance for any typos due to this.
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Listen, I really do think I get where you're coming from, and it would be nice if things work that way, but it assumes a few things that just aren't going to happen--most particularly, that a privileged group will ever have a wide spread incentive to compromise if no one is making them. If one side is always trying to compromise, and the other isn't, the side trying to compromise is going to get stomped every time.
What's more, women can only hold men's hands through feminism so much. It's not that I'm NOT willing to explain things to men (or, hell, female misogynists, because there are enough of those out there) if they honestly want to know, but I don't feel that it's my obligation to wait until they're ready to give women what they ought to have had to begin with. For once, it's NOT about men, and it's about time they accept that.
Now, I don't think that feminists should make ad hominems against men just because they are men, or that they should treat them like assholes, but there is a point where what they're doing wrong will have to be pointed out, which many people will take as an attack regardless of how gently its worded, as long as it actually 1) points out the problem and 2) tells them they have to fix it.
I don't think you should shut up, and I didn't reply to shut you up. I replied because I find your opinion incredibly naive and frustrating, quite honestly, and while I realize that things take time to change, they won't change at all if no one tries.
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Less "play nice" than "playing mean won't get you anywhere, either."
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On a more meta-scale, the problem is, like I said, that it's a false dichotomy. And it assumes that women haven't been nice, and aren't being nice, and even that they can somehow be nice enough and still get somewhere. The fact is, that it's an argument in which, at least for some people, just speaking up means that you're being mean in some people's opinions, and the more assertive you are, the more negative responses you'll get.
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Also re: the false dichotomy -- that's also assuming that women haven't been mean and "cunty" -- and they have been that too, right?
I think Ky was originally just complaining against the people that think being mean is the only way to go as opposed to finding the good mix of assertiveness and logic.
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And, you know. Some people are just not nice. It has nothing to do with whether or not they're feminists.
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And sure, you have the right. Go for it? No one's stopping you. People are just saying, if you're trying to convince people to see things your way, that's not the best way to go about it. If you're not trying to convince people, what's the problem here?
Who said anything about being mean = being a feminist? What?
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And, while I'm sure there are some bitchy feminists out there, there's a good chance that some women are being called cunty just because someone else doesn't care for the points they're making. It happens.
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Don't misunderstand: we're not relating the two, only talking about the ones OF the group that ARE that way.
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In an ideal world, you would be right and she would be right.
In an ideal world, the women's movement could also demand equality flailing, screaming, cursing, swearing and cutting themselves, because they would still be right, no matter how they ask, because equality is not an expensive toy.
In an ideal world, none of this would be necessary either.
In the real world, being assertive and logical still gets you called cunty and mean by a lot of people. There isn't really a comfortable middle ground for everyone. I don't defend women--or feminist men, who seem nearly mythical, but I think I've seen one or two in my time--who aren't civil. I do think that feminists should treat others with the same respect they want for themselves, and which they themselves claim to believe all people deserve. But I'm not going to worry too much about men who get offended and hurt when they have the fact they're misogynists pointed out to them.
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Meh, the few making the whole look bad. Look below at the replies to
See those people? Would you call them "assertive and logical"? Those are the kinds of people I mean.
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Listen, I didn't want to chase anyone away, and I'm sorry she was. She doesn't strike me as a bad person. She strikes me as someone who needs to examine just what she thinks women ought to be doing, and why they are the ones who ought to be doing it, among many other things. I tried my best to explain to her why I found her reply troublesome, and if I failed, then so be it.
But she did generalize that sort of behavior to the feminist movement, not just some people, and she did suggest that by being logical and assertive, we wouldn't alienate so many men. In my experience, the majority of the feminist movement has been logical and assertive, and they have changed things, but these same people have been characterized as cunts, and scared people. They have offended people not with their behavior, but because their message itself was offensive.
You cannot be nice enough for everyone.
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And you think women don't do this? You think women haven't been doing this since the first wave, talking and compromising and trying to change legislation and people's attitudes through their words, over and over again in male-dominated arenas? You actually think that every man who heard them agreed with them because they were polite? I'm sure you don't, but stop generalizing feminism and relations between the sexes down to "well if women would just be nice about it maybe the men would listen!". Because if that were the case there would be no feminist issues today.
If someone came up to me, though, and wanted to talk about how I was treating them (and honestly? A lot of men don't even realize that they're doing it. It's just second nature and I've met some that as soon as it was explained, they were very nice about it and tried their hardest to stop doing certain thing),
And a lot of men simply don't care. A lot of men genuinely hate women and will not listen to what they have to say or respect their basic rights. And those men are clearly in the majority as very basic human rights (such as the right not to be raped) are still denied women today. Yes, talking and cooperation and acting with sanity and reason are necessary for feminists, but we don't owe it to men to soften our message or our demands. They're the ones who ultimately have to change--in everything from attitudes and behavior to giving up a great deal of privilege--in order for equality to be achieved.
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I don't think she ever did that, only expressed embarrassment/distaste/etc at the feminists that think raging and rampaging over "the system" is the only way to get change?
Obviously asking nicely isn't working and hasn't worked, but seriously, if you yell and scream at a guy that he's a misogynist asshole, do you think he's gonna listen?
Yes, talking and cooperation and acting with sanity and reason are necessary for feminists, but we don't owe it to men to soften our message or our demands.
Exactly, but like I said above, there are ways to be forceful and demanding without coming off like an asshole.
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Not at all, but perhaps I am missing the many feminists who are going around raging and rampaging over the system? I'm not being snarky there, I just genuinely do not see it (or see it very rarely). What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing, and wherever that happens there is not a misogynist or two far behind ready to bitch about those bitching feminists.
In fact, when I do see most feminists ripping into a guy, it's, well, when he's being a misogynist asshole. (Hell, I did it back on page 2.) And while that may not be productive, it can be the quickest way to express displeasure at their opinions, or chase them off from a blog or forum or debate where people have no interest in listening to trolls. Because while we're not going to change a misogynist asshole's mind by telling him to go fuck himself, we're probably not going to change it by nicely explaining to him why he's wrong, either.
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talking is -- etjhkjfdhfjh going in circles.
What I do see is feminists talking, debating, and yes, complaining about problems that need fixing except I think the problem is, a lot of the time the way they do it is a lot harsher and stuff than necessary. From
Isn't something between those two ideal?
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With this much, which is perhaps the heart of the debate, I disagree. I don't think most feminists are harsher than necessary and I don't think feminism is damning itself with its most widespread beliefs and practices. I think the onus falls on men to listen and that they are for the most part dropping the ball because, as I said above, the majority simply doesn't care (or they don't want to make the effort to change).
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I think most feminists start off willing to talk nice to misogynist assholes in the hope they'll see the error of their ways, but it's really tiring to explain basic principles to people who barge in expecting their ignorance to be accommodated when they could just read a book or lurk more. If they really care, they'll make an effort. And for every guy who is genuinely innocent, there are about three who've already made up their minds and are only commenting in the first place to wind people up and disrupt the productive conversation that's already going on.
Or shut it down, in the case of #13 up there. Catching more flies with honey is fine, to an extent, but when the fly just called you "dumb bitches" and "feminist cunts", I think squashing it is more than justified.
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So what's wrong with a nice large scale revolution?
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