[ SECRET POST #359 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #359 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS. Also, one possibly triggering image!

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 ] broken links, [ 1 2 3 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] huh?
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, December 30th, 2007.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[karel]

3. I lol'd

13. On the one hand, I think you're a troll. On the other hand, I can completely see where you're coming from. And I... well, I kind of agree. Not so much with the whole "deal with it" feel -- I think things can be changed, but I can tell you how they won't be changed: by people demanding and bitching and being cunty about it. If people want equal rights, they have to prove that they're worth it. Throwing temper tantrums about it isn't proving they're worth it.

15. Straight female and I think it's hot too?

22. I... was like that as a kid ^^' I would always be cast into the male roles when friends and I played dress-up.

13

[(Anonymous)]

"Proving they're worth it"? Are you fucking kidding me? How about this: women are human beings, therefore they deserve the rights of human beings.

[karel]

Sure, you and I may say that but you've got to understand that the people who are on the other side of the fence don't believe it. And you know what? You can't beat them over the head/scream at them/walk all over them until they DO believe it, because that's not how you convince someone of something. You convince someone of something by proving it's true.

If a screaming, crying child walked up to you and demanded the same rights as an adult, would you give it to them? Probably not. If a child walked up to you and rationally explained why they should have the same rights as an adult and proved to you that they deserved those rights, I have a feeling you'd give it to them.

Now don't just focus on my wording and say "OMG YOU'RE CALLING WOMEN CHILDREN!!!!" but it was the best analogy I could come up with and in many cases, it's how the "other side" views us. Honestly, I kind of feel for the secret poster because to a man? It might look like what he's saying. People focus on the bad a lot and if he's seen a lot of the bad? Maybe it's all he can see anymore. Sure, it means that his mindset could use a lot of work, but if it's what he's seeing? They maybe he needs it to be proven otherwise to him.

It takes two parties to grant one party equal rights.

[case]

And you know what? You can't beat them over the head/scream at them/walk all over them until they DO believe it, because that's not how you convince someone of something. You convince someone of something by proving it's true.

IAWT so hard

It's just like racism or homophobia or hell ANYTHING, you don't make people respect you by being all IF YOU DONT RESPECT ME YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE BLEARRRRRRRRR!!!1!!111

Granted women deserve respect/equal rights/etc because they're human, but just because one side is RIGHT doesn't mean everyone sees it.

[(Anonymous)]

I do get what you're saying, at least with the whole aspect of yelling and throwing tantrums. On the other hand, it's not up to men to *allow* women equal rights. It's up to us to demand them and refuse to accept anything less. Who cares whether they believe we deserve it or not? I'm not going to wait that long.

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Despite my thinking the secret poster is probably a whiny misogynist troll, IAWTC SO HARD. Screaming and whining and throwing shit at people is not the way to get what you want, no matter who you are. Which brings me to people who use their status as "victims" to get their way, but that's a whole other rant.

Re: 13

[kezaer.livejournal.com]

Men aren't exactly proving themselves worthy either XD

Ahaha, though I get what you're trying to say. ^^

[karel]

In general, both sides are kind of being lousy human beings to each other :\ It's just that women have been put down for so long that it's convenient, anymore.

What we all need to do is sit our asses down and drink some god damn tea and TALK IT OUT :[ YES, MEN INCLUDED.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm going to try to be as diplomatic as I can be about this.

How, exactly, do you think things change by when people "prove" they're worthy? If people are biased against you, and a system is biased against you, while a few might be successful, they will always be viewed as exceptions, at best, and at worst, they'll be ridiculed, questioned, and suffer from trying to leave their designated role. I cannot stress enough that you do not change people's opinions by keeping your head down and trying to win within the system when the system--or culture--itself is flawed.

And no matter how rational it is, if you're complaining, you are viewed as a whiner, a complainer, a trouble maker, and yes, people will get sick of hearing it long before anything changes.

Part of the problem with the whole system is how much women are supposed to see it from the other side--and compromise, and play nice, and work within the fucked up sexist paradigm, which tells them that to succeed, they have to act like a man, and when they act like a man and stand up for what they deserve as human beings, penalizes them for not being feminine enough. I realize it's hard to rip your mind out of this thinking, but part of the point of feminism is that women shouldn't always have to be the ones seeing it from the other side; if men were seeing it from their side to start with, it wouldn't be an issue.

I do think I get what you're trying to say, but it still seems to me to be very much informed by the idea that women have to earn something that men just get, because that's the way it is, and that is very much the problem to start with.

[zidane.livejournal.com]

Thank. You.

I am not coherent enough today to put it like this, but yes. Thank you.

[karel]

Then what do you propose? Large scale revolution?

People in general are supposed to compromise and see things from each other's points of view and I admit I'm getting idealistic here, but if both sides would make an effort to actually understand each other, the problem would be resolved. But I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sit down and talk to someone that was basically calling me an asshole and a jerk because I'd have a pretty low opinion of them. If someone came up to me, though, and wanted to talk about how I was treating them (and honestly? A lot of men don't even realize that they're doing it. It's just second nature and I've met some that as soon as it was explained, they were very nice about it and tried their hardest to stop doing certain thing), I think I'd be more inclined to listen.

It sounds idealistic and too slow, but sometimes the best way to accomplish things is the "one person/small group at a time" idea. If you can convince enough of society of something, society will change. How do you think religions spread or, hell, fashion trends? Barring, in the case of religion, holy wars and such.

But it's pretty clear I'm in the minority here, so I'll shut my mouth because I honestly don't feel like arguing the point. Which of course can be taken to mean many different things (including contradicting my whole point) but the real meaning behind it is that my hands are cold and so my typing is rather inaccurate and it's annoying me. Apologies in advance for any typos due to this.

[loveotter.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you. Wonderfully put and helped me to pinpoint what was troubling me so much about this discussion.

[sharkosaurus.livejournal.com]

Would it creep you out too much if I said I think I might be a little bit in love with you?

[(Anonymous)]

13. Hah. You think equal rights will be given to the oppressed if they're are nice enough? If they're sweet and shut up? Yeah, that's a tactic that always works.

[(Anonymous)]

IAWTC.

Man, I'm 90% sure the original secret is just a troll looking to stir up wank. The fucktards who say they can see where the person is coming from piss me off so much more than the original secret.

[iamadoughnut.livejournal.com]

This shit is so depressing.

Re: 13

[(Anonymous)]

So, um, how come men don't have to proof they're "worth" having equal rights?

Seriously, wtf.

Re: 13

[(Anonymous)]

So, um, how come men don't have to prove they're "worth" having equal rights? Do you think gay people need to prove they're "worth" marriage and adoption rights? What about racial minorities? Do you think they need to "prove" their "worth" in order to be treated like human beings, too?

Seriously, wtf.

Re: 13

[sarajayechan.livejournal.com]

Oh, but men do have to prove themselves. To angry, pissed off, mace-carrying, ball-busting femnazis who automatically assume that if it has a penis it's gonna rape them and chain them to the kitchen stove. (And before you call me a fucktard for sticking up for men during a feminist debate, I'll also remind you that these femnazis bash housewives for 'setting the women's movement back' just because they'd rather raise a family and be domestic than kick everyone's ass. Just covering my bases here!)

[(Anonymous)]

You really hate your own sex, don't you.

[case]

If she had, which she doesn't, WAY TO CONVINCE HER TO STOP!! Good job!!

See, this is just proving her point.

[karel]

Oh god do I -- just want to carve my own vagina out with a rusty spoon.

No, actually I just hate some of the attitudes that aren't even exclusive to my gender. There is such a thing as hating the thought process without hating the person or group that sometimes does it.

Proving you're worth it....

[kleenexwoman.livejournal.com]

...so how exactly is any given minority group supposed to "prove" they're worth it?

Blowjobs?

Re: Proving you're worth it....

[drworm.livejournal.com]

DO IT WITH YOUR VAGINA!

[(Anonymous)]

Well-behaved women rarely make history. :/