[ SECRET POST #2929 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2929 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 088 secrets from Secret Submission Post #419.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I guess my question is, do you have a better word to use for that concept? Because I do find the word annoying sometimes, but there's not really a better option to use that I can see, and sometimes you really just do have to call something problematic.

[(Anonymous)]

You could say it raises issues or concerns. You could say you find the concept disturbing. You could be brave and flat out give the reason you don't like something, instead of using a waffle word like problematic.

[(Anonymous)]

You could say it raises issues or concerns. You could say you find the concept disturbing.

I would argue that those are just the same thing, except not using the specific word. If problematic is bad, those are just as bad (and, for saying it raises issues, more awkward to use stylistically). I mean, I'm not objecting to them, it's just that if that's your solution then it seems to me that what you're saying is that problematic isn't fundamentally bad, it's just that it gets used too much in ways that annoy you.

You could be brave and flat out give the reason you don't like something, instead of using a waffle word like problematic.

My sense is that the reason that people say "problematic" instead of "sexist" (or whatever) is because sexist (or whatever) carries a way, way bigger charge. Like, in a situation where I think the treatment of women in a given work is an issue, I don't necessarily want to say that it's sexist, because that raises a whole bundle of issues about intentionality, moral judgment, whether or not it was a conscious thing, whether or not I am making an accusation at the people who made it, etc. Saying that something is problematic sidesteps that whole issue by focusing the conversation on the work in a way that using the specific word 'sexist' doesn't.

Again, if you can think of a word that gets that across that is better than problematic, I am completely happy to use it!

[(Anonymous)]

Sexist and racist do carry bigger charges, which is why when something is sexist or racist (or other ists), it's important to call it what it is, rather than hiding behind the bullshit vagueness of "problematic."

[(Anonymous)]

I use problematic as a blanket term for media with all MANNER of issues. I can say it's sexist and homophobic and apologetic, but when the media has more issues than that, or when I'm talking about an entire genre that is rife with different -isms, I'm gonna call it problematic to keep the conversation from getting too wordy.

You sound like someone who goes out of their way to avoid using "said" when writing dialogue.

[(Anonymous)]

Considering the issue here is the degree in which it is used is to the extent where the OP can't take it seriously, it is the solution. It's not that awkward.

[(Anonymous)]

My thought would be, being more specific? Like, if someone finds something problematic, I would assume it's tied to an issue, like sexism, racism, etc. So why not flat-out write "I think this has racist implicationconnotations", or "I'm getting an abusive vibe from this relationship" or whatever. This is why "problematic" often strikes me as lazy, because clearly there is SOMETHING you can pinpoint, instead of using a catch-all term. It'd help get a discussion going or make people examine it more closely, too.

[(Anonymous)]

IDK. I can only answer for myself but I don't think there's ever been a time when I called something problematic without going on to list the specific reasons I considered it problematic.

And, again, like I said above, I think saying "this is racist" comes charged with a whole barrel of weight attached to it, and if you use that language you have to immediately hedge by saying "implications connotations vibes" and I don't think that's actually a much better solution.

[(Anonymous)]

DA.

Interesting, I find this is part of the reason why using "problematic" is tempting? It's like when you just want to say "flawed but in a potentially socially bad way" but don't want to have to expand because you've already mentioned why somewhere else and are just putting a stamp on something at this point. It's like the minimal amount of information to sum up your sentiments about it without going into detail -- for sure useful when I'm being lazy.

I'm tempted to use it this way (as a kind of "blah blah blah") but after seeing people who just throw it around to look correct and righteous without having to explain their reasoning at all, that's made me more reluctant...

[(Anonymous)]

"I think this has racist implication/connotations" and "I'm getting an abusive vibe from this relationship" is subjective.
"This is problematic" is objective.

People are far too often unwilling to concede that their opinions are Not solid facts that everyone needs to agree with. Subjective opinions can not be used to bully people into telling you that you're right and making you feel powerful and superior.

[(Anonymous)]

"This is problematic" is objective.

...It's really not, though?

[(Anonymous)]

But it is. Somthing being problematic is subjective, but somone saying outright that somthing is problematic is an objective statment.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, then "This is racist" or "This is sexist" should work just as well.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the ayrt means that people use "This is problematic" as an objective statement which means they can ignore anybody who disagrees with them since they're wrong and probably whatever-ist. Plus is a nice blanket statement so they can make sure they get all the brownie points.

"I think x is whatever-ist" admits that it is merely an opinion, and not undisputed fact.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, in a perfect world it would be objective, but right now, it's kind of not.

[(Anonymous)]

No, I mean it is an objective statement, not that the thing that is being described is objectively one thing or another, but that the way they choose to describe it is in an objective manner. It's not saying "I think XXX" it's saying "This is XXX"

[anonymous4]

It's actually subjective masquerading as objective.

Which is why it pushes so many buttons.

[were_lemur]

Wow. I never thought of it that way, but you're right.

[elialshadowpine]

Hmm. I tend to agree, if the main issue in the book/movie/TV series/whatever is XYZ. If there's multiple issues, I'll personally tend towards problematic, and elaborate as needed. It depends on context, too. But, I can understand where "problematic" can get to be an issue, when everyone says something is "problematic" but it's harder to find info on what actually is the issue (and then people act like you're stupid, or outright call you such, if it's something you didn't pick up on, when sometimes things can be pretty subtle and wouldn't be things you'd necessarily think of; I've lost track of the number of times someone put a bunch of relatively-subtle stuff together that I missed when I was reading, for whatever reason, and it seemed pretty obvious afterwards).

[diet_poison]

But language has a wide variety of catch-all terms that are useful in some situations. Almost any descriptive word can be either more general or more specific and can be "lazy" in the right context.

It's a word that means something. It has a use. Just because people are over-using it/using it wrong doesn't mean its definition ceases to be.

[(Anonymous)]

Lol at the idea that "this is racist" or "this is sexist" don't shut down conversation. Because if you call something racist, you're OBVIOUSLY calling anyone who enjoyed it racist as well, and the discussion must necessarily turn not to why the original thing might be racist, but why the people who like it *totally aren't* and *how dare you.*

The whole reason people started using problematic was because people's feelings were too fragile to call a spade a spade.

[erinptah]

My complaint is that it's such a generic concept, the word doesn't actually convey any meaning. Everything is problematic on some level. Two people could take issue with a work in ways that are completely opposed to each other, and both describe it as "problematic."

Use words that describe the specific problem. Is it skeevy about gender? Race? Sexuality? Does it use stereotypes about a certain group? Does it have minority characters who are well-rounded and fine in their own right, but sidelined in favor of the straight/white/male/cis/Christian/etc lead? Are people being sexualized in an uncomfortable way? Are people being desexualized in an uncomfortable way? Is it fine as an individual work, but disheartening in that it plays into some broader pattern? Is it a problem with the series, or a problem with something the creator said about how you're intended to interpret the series...or a problem of fans projecting their own assumptions and getting mad when that isn't realized? Is it an actual issue, or is it something fans are ginning up in order to bash people who don't like their favorite character/ship/whatever?

And so on. There's no one better word for the overall idea, there are endless combinations of better words for the different ways it manifests.

[(Anonymous)]

There's no one better word for the overall idea, there are endless combinations of better words for the different ways it manifests.

True, but "skeevy" would work surprisingly well in most cases.

[diet_poison]

This.