[ SECRET POST #2958 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2958 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 054 secrets from Secret Submission Post #423.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

So...I'm a woman that has rape fantasies. I know not every woman has them but I don't think it's that unusual of a kink. In fact, I'd venture to say it's rather common.

Anyway, yesterday I was discussing Fifty Shades of Grey with some friends and I mentioned that I'm not too bothered by it. What gets to me is that it's so horribly written and the author tries to classify it as BDSM when it's clearly a rape fantasy or ravishment lit. And that if she just put it in the right genre, I'd be okay with it because it's a common enough genre.

Well...saying this apparently made some of my friends REALLY upset. And they said how such fantasies are "niche" and that most women don't have them. And I tried to backpedal -- saying that of course they don't, just that they're common enough that there's no excuse for EL James to classify her book as BDSM when she could just describe it as ravishment.

But they were apparently really angry and acting as though I was saying women WANTED to be raped and I was being a rape apologist and there's something wrong with women who have such fantasies. That I shouldn't use the word fantasy because it has positive connotations (which I don't understand why that would be an issue since those "fantasies" are about sexual gratification).

And when I pointed out some studies showing that quite a few women have such fantasies, they said that it was only college-aged women and then remarked that they were glad not to be in college anymore and this is why feminism can't gain any traction.

And...well...I couldn't help but be incredibly hurt by what they said. And even though they don't know that I have rape fantasies, I feel like they're accusing me of being a rape apologist or trying to minimize rape. And I'm angry at them too for thinking that women like me are too stupid to know the difference between a written scene in a book and an actual fucking crime.

Was I in the wrong to bring it up? It's just been bothering me so much and I wish I hadn't said anything.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I think your views are broadly right and theirs are broadly unreasonable. If that's worth anything. In particular, this:

And when I pointed out some studies showing that quite a few women have such fantasies, they said that it was only college-aged women and then remarked that they were glad not to be in college anymore and this is why feminism can't gain any traction.

is some... remarkably specious reasoning.

Of course, there are probably times when it's better to be a little cautious about bringing it up just because it's such a sensitive topic, but I don't think you're a rape apologist or trying to minimize rape.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I just don't understand it, I pointed out that some women, in the context of sex, like to be whipped or spanked or have hooks pushed into their bodies (or other things that make me, personally cringe), but that doesn't mean that they support domestic violence or child abuse.

And they took that and said how I had lost them when I said "it's fine" for women to enjoy having positive fantasies of being raped and all the cutters they knew were in the hospital.

And I was incredibly hurt by their implications.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I know this is really late and probably won't be seen, but:

Isn't telling any individual what they are permitted to like or enjoy the opposite of freedom? I'm putting this very badly, I'm sorry, but who the hell are your friends to determine what is normal or acceptable for anyone to fantasize about?

Most ravishment/rape fantasies are an example of topping from the bottom, aren't they? I wouldn't imagine that the person fantasizing is picturing the actual outcome of a violent assault (pain, injuries, police, etc) unless they had a specific kink for those factors. What gives anyone the right to judge how or what trips someone's trigger or to say that one cannot be a good feminist if they find something like this appealing?

Sorry if this comes out garbled. It's early where I am and I wanted to catch up on FS. I'm probably not the most coherent right now, please forgive me.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[kaijinscendre]

I'd speculate that older women are as likely (if not more) to have rape fantasies. The reason those studies are only college-aged women is because those are where most studies are done. But the huge audience of middle aged women for 50 Shades of Grey shows that older women do enjoy the whole ravishment/BDSM/rape fantasy thing.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

That's what I said, but then they kept bringing up anecdotal evidence of how NO ONE they knew liked Fifty Shades and how they had only bought it because it was popular and for so-bad-it's-good.

And then they went on and on about how the film was going to tank and I was just thinking of how, despite the fact that it's crap, it has HUGE advance ticket sales and the books had sold over 100 million copies.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[kaijinscendre]

I have 4 female coworkers who LOVE the books and plan on seeing the movie. I downloaded the audiobook of all 3 books for one of them so she could relisten to it at work.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

how they had only bought it because it was popular and for so-bad-it's-good

I don't know your friends, OP, but it kinda sounds like they did like it but are ashamed to admit it and are being a bit overly defensive about it.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

anecdotal evidence of how NO ONE they knew liked Fifty Shades and how they had only bought it because it was popular and for so-bad-it's-good.

Yeah, I don't know about this. Something about protesting too much and all that.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I think you're 100% right.

I got into the same heated discussion on Facebook, when my "feminist" friends have been posting that "Boycott 50 shades and donate to domestic violence help groups!" or whatever.

Here's the thing. 50 Shades certainly is "problematic" and doesn't portray healthy BDSM... if we choose to read it as a completely serious story. But it isn't. It's porn. It's porn written by a woman, for women. It's literally one women's sexual fantasy. I could see it being more controversial if it were written by a guy, but the fact is, it isn't. It may be a crappy erotica story, but it is just that, erotica. It's fantasy. And if someone wants to have fantasies about a dark brooding handsome billionaire who just won't take no for an answer, cry me a fucking river.

And you're right. I heard not only is rape one of the most common fantasies, being sexually dominated by someone is actually one of the most common fantasies for both men and women alike.

By all means, I think we need more open discussions about what is consent, and for those interested in kink, how to practice it safely. More than that, stressing the difference between fantasy and reality (not only for sexual material but also things like violence, etc in media) But frankly, this whole issue seems to me like classic kink-shaming and very little more.

(and absolutely donate to women's centers to combat domestic violence! but seriously, how can you boycott a film you were never planning on seeing anyway...)

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I just felt really condescended to.

I mean, when the topic of violent video games leading to real life violence comes up, most people (rightly, in my opinion) points out that this is absurd. (I personally think that violent video games may be symptomatic of a violent society but it's not the CAUSE of violence in any way, shape, or form).

But then when women want to enjoy a porn fantasy, suddenly, we have to "protect" them from becoming domestic violence victims. And I don't deny that society can shape women's sexual desires, but I don't think liking rape fantasy porn is in any way indicative of being at risk for domestic violence. And I felt incredibly patronized to be honest.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

It's marketed as accurate to BDSM and utterly romantic tho.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

Your friends are blowing it out of proportion. You are right: those fantasies are common and have been for a long time. They seem to have missed the word fantasies in their righteous indignation.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

So...I'm a woman that has rape fantasies

Stopped reading there. I hope you never have to realise how fucking evil you really are, but if you do I sure as hell won't mourn for you.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

Hey rad!fem anon.

Nice of you to drop by. :)

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I really thought rad!fem had quit for good. loved us too much, couldn't stay away, I guess.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

no.
just fucking no. You never wish rape on someone.
Besides, you don't know what she means by 'Rape fantasies' Maybe she is talkling about fantasizing about her as a woman raping a man?
so basically GTFO, rad!fem.

Troll

[(Anonymous)]

Anon I am responding to is a troll

just so you all are aware

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

Nothing says "I believe in female empowerment" quite like trying to police other women's sexual kinks and fantasies.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

Your friends are kind of... not very logical. Rape fantasies are a way for a woman to take control over a very scary thing. The fantasy is theirs to shape, nothing can happen that they don't want to have happen. Deep down, they KNOW it's safe, that they can stop or change the scenario any time they want. That's the power of fantasy, no matter what the subject matter.

IMO, you got bogged down in an argument that wasn't worth having, because it misses a few key points. First, duh, fantasy is not reality. Lots of people fantasize about things they would never do in real life, or wouldn't actually want in real life. For example (to choose a less flammatory topic), I daydreamed a lot about running away when I was a kid. Did I ever do it? Hell no, because I knew full well I'd end up cold, hungry and homeless at best, and at worst, murdered or kidnapped. I understood there's a difference between escapist dreaming about a life with no parental rules and the actual reality of not having a home or parents to look after you.

Your friends have been distracted by the hot button topic of rape. That's not really the issue. I'm not sure you'll get them to understand that at this point, so if I were you, I'd start shopping around for some friends who aren't as prone to letting emotions cloud their rationality.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[lb_lee]

Nah, they're full of shit. Rape survivor and feminist here.

I still stand my ground: a fantasy, all on its own, can not hurt anyone. Having a fantasy (and there are survivors with rape fantasies! le gasp!) does not mean you approve of the behavior or want it to happen.

Say I had rape fantasies. Am I somehow supposed to believe I am a BETRAYER TO THE FEMINIST CAUSE? Even if they help me heal? Come on. That's horseshit.

The problem isn't the fantasy. It's when people start blurring the lines between it and reality, which you clearly aren't doing.

--Rogan

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

You weren't wrong. But the thing is that, while you're correct that it really is ravishment porn and nothing more, it's being MARKETED as LITERATURE. And as "an accurate portrayal of BDSM," which it is not. That is why it's so gross. If the author/publisher were being honest about what 50 Shades actually is, I think most people who complain wouldn't have an issue. But it's being dishonestly marketed, it IS having a negative effect on people because of that. Ask a few BDSM folks sometimes about the large influx of ignorant newbies with extremely harmful and dangerous ideas, that correlates EXACTLY with the rise in popularity of 50 Shades, and many of whom are quite open about the fact that 50 Shades is where they're getting their inspiration. Ask a LOT of women about the way that quite a few skeevy men are trying very hard to use 50 Shades and its popularity as "proof" that all women want to be dominated and controlled by men, which is being to some degree abetted by the media. These things are why 50 Shades is a problem. Not because it's a ravishment fantasy porno, but because everyone associated with it is actively going out of their way to promote the stuff that happens in it as sexy and awesome. Stuff like stalking, terrifyingly controlling behavior, emotional abuse, literal forcible rape. That stuff belongs in ravishment fantasies. It doesn't belong in "literature" that is heavily promoted as being an accurate picture of what a sexy awesome romantic relationship looks like.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think there was anything wrong with what you were saying and your friends were being rather unreasonable. At a glance, it can be seen as a bad thing, but you're right in saying that rape fantasies aren't very uncommon. It was kind of childish of them to just toss aside your arguments just because they didn't agree with it.

TBH I am past college age and I have rape fantasies.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[nyxelestia]

This pretty much is the reason why most people in the BDSM community hate/look down on 50 Shades - not that it's unhealthy sexual dynamics, but that it's unhealthy sexual dynamics passing itself off as healthy ones.

Claiming that rape fantasies are the reason why feminism can't gain any traction completely ignores decades of both feminism history and kink history. Some incredibly ardent feminists are bottoms/subs/masochists from BDSM. How would they explain the extensive women's rights and feminist movements stemming from campuses if young women can't be feminists because of rape fantasies? How do they explain that today's generation of college women are the ones fighting back against the sexual assault on campus, if rape fantasies somehow mitigate feminism?

Also, this mindset implies that they think young women are incapable of telling apart fantasy from reality - exactly what some misogynists accused women of, and exactly what feminists call bullshit on. And if they are going to claim that women having rape fantasies is proof that something is wrong with a woman, and thus that somehow that such women can't fight for or don't deserve equal rights...what makes them better than the misogynistic culture that continuously tells us women are too emotional and capricious to be able to manage themselves, let alone be given positions of leadership?

By labeling rape fantasies as "wrong" when no one is actually being hurt by them (unwillingly), they are undermining these women's choices, exactly the thing we hate misogynists for.

*looks up* That...may have gotten away from me, a bit. Maybe.

Re: Rape Fantasies and...Rape Apologism?

[(Anonymous)]

I agree, but I don't get what a woman's age has to do with whether she has rape fantasies or not. I'm in my early 20s and never had them.

Yesterday someone was saying all the 50 shades of gray fans were actually OLDER women, so implying that older women were more likely to be into that stuff, now apparently young women all have rape fantasies...