fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3386 ]

[ SECRET POST #3386 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3386 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Bit early today, sorry!

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 058 secrets from Secret Submission Post #484.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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This:

http://imgur.com/1c4Wg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zvj2wdoCTPg/hqdefault.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--BmYLmri3--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18289orcg9293jpg.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8wU_xlCQAAQKyN.jpg

Even Japan thinks that some anime characters look white.

Sssssh, ssssh.

Anime characters reflect Asian beauty ideals. Which have existed for millennia without influence from European cultures.

I mean, those ideals were drastically different and reflected a more stereotypically Asian appearance before the global dominance of European cultures. Oval faces and single-lidded eyes were the beauty ideal in Edo Japan and before and changed to double-lidded eyes and faces with sharply defined jaws out of pure coincidence that has nothing to do with people after coming into contact with white people.

But I assure you. It is nothing to do with that. At all. It is just like how pale skin is a marker of wealth, thus beauty, even though it isn't anymore and everyone works indoors in much of industrialized Asia and the beauty ideals in other parts of the industrialized world have shifted accordingly to reflect the fact that rich people now have more leisure time to tan. It is a sign of wealth and has nothing to do with white people or white beauty ideals, even though white people are often used to advertise whitening creams.

You racist, imperialist whitey. You only think this because you are racist.

Sure. And? That still doesn't mean they're "white coded." Unless you mean Asians who have white-influenced beauty ideals are not actually Asian?

You wouldn't also happen to think that black women who straighten their hair aren't actually black would you?

Go roast your genitals off for saying that Asian people who have a white-influenced ideal of beauty are not actually asian and the characters they themselves write, name, and situate in Asia are not asian. Whiteness is not that fucking powerful. Japanese people have been through a lot of cultural exchange with China, Korea, and Russia before and have borrowed metric fucktons of cultural expectations from them without becoming less Japanese. Your fucking whiteness is not more powerful than that just by dint of being white.

They're not "white-coded" but the artist drew their attractive characters to look more like white people for a reason.

It's the same reason black people straighten their hair.

Which is to say it has absolutely nothing to do with white people whatsoever, it's merely a fashion statement made by proud, empowered people from wonderful cultures.

Unless we're talking about how oppressive these ideals are. Then it's white people's fault.

Don't worry bro I've got it all figured out by now.

It's the same reason black people straighten their hair. Which is to say it has absolutely nothing to do with white people whatsoever

Now hold on a minute... I'm not saying that straightening hair is the fault of the average white person, but it has a little to do with white people. Wait, just hear me out- I was the only dark skinned person in my school from kindergarten until seventh grade. While the other girls (I was a girl at the time) were always playing with their hair, brushing it, getting to go swimming, stuff like that, I was the one who had to have her hair constantly tied down. I remember one Halloween going to the school part with my hair not in braids, and it caused... well, a kerfluffle. It was just so unlike what they were used to seeing. If their hair ever did what mine was doing, they'd consider it a mess. See, they had only their own standards to go by, their own yardstick by which to measure the world. See what I'm saying? And growing up in their world, I just sort of learned to measure things by their standard.

And it's not anyone's fault. It just comes with the territory. If a white student grew up around a bunch of black students, the same thing would happen. Nobody's the bad guy. Nobody's purposely oppressing anyone. It's just the way things work out.

that is a very rational analysis of your own situation and I'm kinda happy that people can still do this, what with all the "I'm a victim" stuff going on on twitter over everything.

From the perspective of a self-analyzing part of a larger white group with one black kid in class I can add this:
there was a black boy in our class (elementary school) who was pretty close with my sister, so I saw him regularly even outside of school. he was the only black kid in the entire school, adopted by a couple who were exactly the same social class as evryone there. So there were no class-issues or foreign-name issues or anything. he was just "the kid who looked different". Of course, kids as we were, we would tease each other about how that kid had a big nose, or that kid had stupid freckles, and he, well, I thought his short-cropped curly hair made his head look like a hamburger. So I called him that. Until one day my mom and his mom talked me out of it because it apparently hurt his feelings. It took me a bit to understand why this was a special thing because everyone was picking on someone about something, and I got teased about stuff more often than not, too, but finally I understood that it's really much harder on someone who already *is* the odd one out to be teased about something that makes them different.
So I guess that day I understood how dynamics of race can pose a problem even when there is no harm intended and no underlying racism actually involved.

You do realize that these are all done by one> person, right? So...one Japanese guy thinks anime characters look white, lets go with him instead of all the bazillion ones that think they don't!

It's kind of scary how easily white people think that the rules of animation (making your main character stick out with more detail, large eyes for expressiveness, bright hair to give the character a distinct visual style, a simple, small mouth and nose to offset the large eyes (something seen in Western animation a lot as well), etc) is somehow indicative of white superiority.

Do you speak Japanese? You do realize the majority of Japanese people find this whole "anime characters are white" debate rather pathetic and laughable whenever someone brings it up, right? They think it's extreme narcissism that we can see a production drawn by and for Japanese people, aimed towards a Japanese audience, aired in Japan, and see Western Whiteness portrayed there instead.

でも貴方も日本語が喋れる可能性が非常に低いだろう。どう、日本人が思われることが分かるか。

DA your second sentence is a little messed up. I assume you wanted to say "how do you know what japanese people happen to think [about that]". but "dou" with a comma suggests that you want to say "so, what's it like?"
"nande nihonjin ga omotteiru koto wakaru to iu no ka?" might be better. or even "omae, nihonjin no iken no nani ga wakaru tsuu no. bakayarou"

NAYRT, but you first sentence is complete gibberish. "Nande" is why, not how. "Omowareru" - the passive - is in this context the correct tense, "omotteiru" is incorrect. You're also missing two particles, and "to iu no ka" makes no sense whatsoever; the anon is very clearly not asking "...are you saying?"

Moreover, "dou" means "how" and "by what means" - I can only imagine that you've only heard it in the sentence "dou da/deshita/etc." which is how you've misinterpreted it so badly.

ARYT's sentence correctly reads "It's also extremely unlikely that you can speak Japanese, too. How do you know what Japanese people think?" Yours, on the other hand, is broken language to the point of nonsense.

Please learn Japanese from classes or textbooks, not bad manga translations.

hey, I'm a translator. it's not gibberish, it's called colloquial language, or non-textbook japanese, if you will. both sentences ARE gramattically correct, of course, but the placement of the comma makes the second one weird. nande is, fyi, just like doushite, both how AND why.
and I'd really like to know your justification for "omowareru" - because I'm not sure you know why it is correct (and there are two ways it can be, neither of them being passive). there also are no "tenses" in japanese, but that's a linguistic detail that's not really important and you can go and call it that if you like.

SAですが、勿論、言い方が多少あり、わたしが選んだ方は少し生意気というか、詰まり正式ではない方ですね。
しかし長い間日本人と付き合って、日常的に話をしたり、翻訳をしたりすると、教科書の話し方を忘れてしまうもの。日本人もおなじです。
正式で言ってみれば、えーと、その第二の文章は確かに「日本人が考えていることをどうわかるのですか?」ですけど、それもまた、いかなる方法の中の一つのみ、ということですね。
これでご理解を得たのでしょうかね?

Third party here, I think both of your Japanese is slightly off. I would correct your statement thus:

SAですが、言い方がいろいろありますし、自分の言い方は少し生意気の方かもしれませんが、それはカジュアルな話し方ですからね。しかし、長い間日本人と付き合って、毎日毎日話し合ったり翻訳したりすると、教科書的な話し方を忘れてしまいます。日本人もそうです。正直言って、ええと、その第二の文章は確かに「日本人が考えてることをどうわかるのですか」という方が正しいですか、それもまたいかなる方法の中の一つのみ、ということですね。　これでわかってくれるでしょうか。

I think the anon you were replying to made mistakes, too, frankly. Your Japanese is good and quite comprehensible, but a little odd in places.

As for my own qualifications, I've been a professional translator for 4 years. My area of specialization is novels, so I'm quite good with casual prose. I used to work in a Japanese office that required writing piles of formal reports... my supervisor would then correct everything and I'd do it over, haha. I think it really improved my writing abilities.

Oh, as for the line in question, I would write: どうやって日本人は考えてることがわかるんでしょうか。 But I'm leery on the particles. Not sure. I feel like "wo wakaru" is off in this sense of the word "wakaru", but I'm working off pure gut feelings here.

NAYRT

Are you seriously trying to bait the above anon into a Japanese dick waving contest on an English speaking board by claiming, in Japanese, that it's a very slim chance that they also speak Japanese and know what the Japanese feel about this? My Japanese personally certainly isn't good enough to go on 2ch and start up a conversation about this, but I've seen translated conversations that back up pretty much exactly what the AYRT stated.

Here look, a bunch of articles that discuss exactly this, referencing 2ch conversations:

http://kotaku.com/5951750/whos-white-and-whos-japanese-in-anime-once-again-the-internet-compares
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/08/30/guest-post-why-do-the-japanese-draw-themselves-as-white/
http://rabitsokuhou.2chblog.jp/archives/67710199.html

"You do realize that these are all done by one> person, right"

Source?

NAYRT

Er....are you really that dense? Isn't it pretty obvious by the exact same art style in all of them? The same font, subject matter, and art style wasn't a hint?

So the source is your ass. Good to know!

There are two that are probably by the same guy, but the other two are completely different, that's three different people making them. Anon is full of shit ar/or in denial.

As a white person saying this I don't really know how much weight this has, but I think most Japanese people aren't consciously aware of how heavily their beauty ideals are influenced by white people. When I went to Japan I was constantly complimented in the vein of "ohh your skin is so white," "you've got such big eyes," "your face is so small" (small face = more pointed, smaller jawline, more white-looking), "I wish my hair were that color." I've had conversations where when I mention I don't wear makeup, a woman replied to me "well you're white so you don't have to... Japanese women use it to make their noses stand out more and their eyes look bigger." LITERALLY SHE SAID THAT. And I've met women who said straight up they plan to get eye surgery or a boob job.

And yet, when you try to point out that all these things are positioning white people as a beauty ideal, none of them see it that way. They say "no, I just want to look pretty."

I mean christ, look at the rates of eye surgery in South Korea and tell me that has nothing to do with race. Asian-Americans are much more likely to see it as a racial thing because they live in a more heterogeneous society where they are the minority. You're more aware of race. Asians in Asia do not talk about racism, by and large. The conversation is just not there in the same way... they're blind both to their own racism (toward mostly other Asians) and their weird inferiority complex toward white people.

wtf is this racist shit

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[ SECRET POST #3386 ]

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