Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-04-06 05:53 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-04-06 05:53 pm
[ SECRET POST #457 ]
⌈ Secret Post #457 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
__________________________________________________
02.
__________________________________________________
03.
__________________________________________________
04.
__________________________________________________
05.
__________________________________________________
06.
__________________________________________________
07.
__________________________________________________
08.
__________________________________________________
09.
__________________________________________________
10.
__________________________________________________
11.
__________________________________________________
12.
__________________________________________________
13.
__________________________________________________
14.
__________________________________________________
15.
__________________________________________________
16.
__________________________________________________
17.
__________________________________________________
18.
__________________________________________________
19.
__________________________________________________
20.
__________________________________________________
21.
__________________________________________________
22.
__________________________________________________
23.
__________________________________________________
24.
__________________________________________________
25.
__________________________________________________
26.
__________________________________________________
27.
__________________________________________________
28.
__________________________________________________
29.
__________________________________________________
30.
__________________________________________________
31.
__________________________________________________
32.
__________________________________________________
33.
__________________________________________________
34.
__________________________________________________
35.
__________________________________________________
36.
__________________________________________________
37.
__________________________________________________
38.
__________________________________________________
39.
__________________________________________________
40.
__________________________________________________
41.
__________________________________________________
42.
__________________________________________________
43.
__________________________________________________
44.
__________________________________________________
45.
__________________________________________________
46.
__________________________________________________
47.
__________________________________________________
48.
__________________________________________________
49.
__________________________________________________
50.
__________________________________________________
51.
__________________________________________________
52.
__________________________________________________
53.
__________________________________________________
54.
__________________________________________________
55.
__________________________________________________
56.
__________________________________________________
57.
__________________________________________________
58.
__________________________________________________
59.
__________________________________________________
60.
__________________________________________________
61.
__________________________________________________
62.
__________________________________________________
63.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 340 secrets from Secret Submission Post #066.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 - empty comment ], [ 1 - what ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
54, 55
55. While I wouldn't call it lazy, I honestly have to agree that most of the time, I'm happier when honorifics aren't brought into translations of anime and manga. Sure, for series like Fruits Basket, there are points where it's important, but I feel that the translations of most series read better without them and that if given enough thought and effort, a translation could be worded to work around them entirely.
However, it's also my belief that fan translations should first and foremost focus on bringing general knowledge to the series and more detailed things like ease of reading should be left to those who are being paid to adapt and translate it professionally.
Re: 54, 55
Problem is, they DON'T get it correctly or have a horrible alternative (and I've seen them). And omitting them is just as bad (Viz's translation of Prince of Tennis comes to mind.)
Re: 54, 55
Re: 54, 55
There are scenes that an English alternative will not fit no matter what you do. Like calling someone "Kana-san" to "Kana-chan" or "Mizutani-kun" to "Mizutani-san". If you notice, the characters usually make a HUGE deal about a subtle change like that. And don't give me the "Mr./Miss would be fine." because no young person use that in America or Japan. Like someone pointed out that you don't call your lover Mr./Miss. [insert name here], Japanese don't either. '-san' is an indication of what kind of relationship the speaker has with the addressee, it doesn't even mean 'Mr./Miss' in some cases. I'm not even touching the more complicated honorifics like "-sempai", "-bocchama", "-tchin", "-tan", etc.
For example, in a manga called Doubt!, the main character, Ai, makes a huge deal on how the boys address to pretty girls and plain Jane. They would call a girl '[insert last name]-chan', while the plain jane is called a '[insert last name]'. See? There is no English equivalent to that. That's the reasons why most professional stick with the honorifics because they know why it's important to keep them in (except Viz on some of their releases, for some odd reason I can't fathom).
Re: 54, 55
However, since it'd have to be a good translator AND writer, I think I prefer them without even trying, because there's far too much room for fucking up, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE to do.
Re: 54, 55
But the alternatives were pretty poor. That's why when they started to translate it more authentically, they left the honorifics in because there was no set meaning for them and they were important to interpersonal relationship and the characters' personality. The fans came only to expect them because they learn that they were important and expect them to be there. And that they were always there. A GOOD translator would leave them in instead taking them out because a GOOD translator would know that not everything can be translated correctly within a language, thus why translation is more of an art than science.
Re: 54, 55
However, someone with a good mastery of BOTH languages should be able to translate them. When you get down to it, by not translating the honorific they ARE not making a complete translation. It's just that it's a translation they can not make, because it's common knowledge, or they can add a handy dandy little guide in the beginning (And as I said before, probably a better thing). But someone who was good at the art of language could do it smoothly. Obviously they CAN be translated, as we all seem to be aware of what they mean. The knack would be working that into the text, instead of into a glossary in the front.
Re: 54, 55
It's not like manga is a new thing in America, it been here for nearly twenty years, geez. If they can't do it by now, they never could.
Re: 54, 55
Historically there were times when we used names and titles similar to the Japanese, such as when the Ton was at it's height, and many of those words, though not in common use, are still recognizable to us. Yeah, it might be a little abnormal, but if it flows well...I don't get called Ms. Hanson often but I've only been called Hanson-San a few times, so really, in ENGLISH the former is less odd. And since you're translating it to English you should find the most fitting AND common, familiar terms. The person is pointing out that the second part is where the laziness is coming in. -San, -Chan, -Kun etc. are NOT common in our language, and the Translators are luck/lazy (I more see it as the former) that they don't have to deal with it, because it's general knowledge among their target audiences what they entail. There ARE translator who don't get to get away with that (in their defense, manga/anime translators also don't get anything but dialog to convey meaning, which makes it harder)
No, teacher isn't always switchable with Sensei, BUT someone who worked hard enough could find proper words to get the feel and meaning of it, and keep it in the flow of the story. They're saying the lazy is not doing as such.
Re: 54, 55
And they DO work hard and they DO have professional people who has to have a high mastery to be a professional translator. The reason they delete honorifics in the first place BECAUSE THERE IS NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENT. NONE. Zip. Nada. Zilch. without losing the original meaning.
Dear god, it's not like it's the first time that translators left Japanese words in. Like Japanese dishes or terms, they can be translated if they so pleased (Like my book on Shinsengumi left the markers for districts in of Kyoto in it). I'm not going through the various other languages that left the term in the original state. Like the Harry Potter book with their usage of British expressions when it could be replaced with American expressions despite have almost the same language.
You think it's sloppy, I think you're over exaggerating and overlooking the importance of addressing people in Japan. Despite it been in English, an translation doesn't need to be Americanized. And it's not like translators don't provide translation notes.
The fans don't get up in arms like you think. Viz removes the honorifics in some of their work and no one called for a witch burning or anything like that (well, they do and it's mostly because they can't edit thing worth a shit.) Even with the so called pursist in popular anime forum more often won't list the lack of honorifics in a list of problems with the American translations. So on, the fanbrats aren't that much of an influence as you like to think it is. Most of these companies done it on their OWN accord.
Re: 54, 55
You're a shining example. Assuredly.
And you obviously either haven't been in fandom enough, or go in very small circle to have not seen fans getting in kerfluffes over that. You speak like you've been around since before leaving in suffixes was rather common, but your lack of being aware of fandom then seems the opposite.
And you're still confusing TECHNICALLY knowing English with being creative in English. There's a difference...it's the difference between blue prints and a Monet. All translators know the language, they're not all creative with it.
And you underestimate English. It has one of the largest vocabulary, you could find words. Out of 995,112 a creative person with a wide vocabulary could find a fitting way to catch the nuiances and not sound archaic.
Re: 54, 55
I think you're OVERESTIMATING English to be honest, and besides not everyone uses most of the words of the language anyway. Like how Japanese have about 50000 kanji to choose from about regularly only use around 3,000 or more regularly. Like I said, if you're going to use some archaic word that you will have to explain ANYWAY. So the point comes moot in the end.
English is just like other languages in that:
1) It can't translate every word in every language. For example, Del Rey's decision to keep "hitsuzen" in xxxHolic in Japanese because translating into fate or destiny would be wrong because "hitsuzen" doesn't exactly mean that. You have some bizarre idea that translators didn't mull over the decision to keep Japanese honorifics or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
2) Doesn't make a word we absolutely won't need. There wasn't any need for any honorifics outside Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms., so we don't need any more. Have they been some other honorifics beside those? Maybe, but they're so antiquated, no one uses it anymore. It would be extremely odd if someone used an extremely antiquated term in English. Hell, I remember some conversation (who don't speak a lick of Japanese) get perplexed of one translation of a certain manga translating all the "-san" as Mr., finding it extremely formal then it wasn't the case.
I don't think you don't take account of the culture of English speaking countries either. The reason we have so few honorifics because we don't adopt the same attitudes about addressing people like some Asian culture, which is a really big deal for them. It's common to call someone by their first name or nickname, if their name has a common nickname, on the first meeting. Unless they're a strict teacher, doctor, or some lawyer. Hell, we even address our bosses by their first name most of the time. A long time ago, it was common to call people in a higher social status by "Miss", "Mr.", etc. But clearly we don't use that anyone unless we want to be extremely formal.
You keep on believing that they haven't tried alternatives after nearly 20 years. They did, and they were pretty retarded to say in the least.
Re: 54, 55
A) I have a shit tons of respect for translator, particular those of XXholic/Tsubasa as they go into very illuminating detail about WHY they did things the way they did, and owned up to the Fai/Fye thing.
B) I assumed anime fans aren't as silly as you seem to think they are and would figure out the cultural difference without a glossary if they were written well. I assume someone would know if they were calling someone say, Madame, even though we don't commonly use it anymore in this language. I also think that's a talent that is rare in ANY translation (Writing around words that don't translate right), not just Japanese, and think that for manga they are smarter not to try to write around it. I just think that it could be done well with out it by a talented person. I hold nothing against the translators that it is their job to get the message across as cleanly and neatly as possible. But that doesn't means that a talented person couldn't do it. I also think you're getting wrapped up in finding a WORD to replace the words, as oppose to a phrase, sentence, or whatever may work for what ever situation. (I.e. Replacing Seishirou's use of -kun on Subaru with something along the lines of "He said his name in a mocking tone." Which, as I pointed out above wouldn't work so well in Manga, as they only have dialog. However, as I also pointed out, I am not an amazingly creative writer)
Think it's smarter=/= it not being able to be done. Also it being done badly before=/=it not being able to be done. If you've been involved in the fandom for so long, you'll know a lot of those previous effort weren't exactly quality, or being done to reach any high standard. (See "Bunny" to replace "Usagi-chan" in Sailor Moon)
However, you're really making a lot of uneducated biased assumptions, and coming off as, well, a bit obsessive over it having to only be ONE WAY EVER. I'm really tired of yelling at a brick wall of a "OMG they translated it wrong!" fanbrat, even if you do happen to be a pretty well written one.
Re: 54, 55
I'm not making uneducated biases as much your making assumptions that it can be done in a "creative" way without even giving examples, actually endorsing using archaic words that you have to end up explaining anyway (and they have to really archaic going past Old English because there was very, very few outside royal titles and yes I had to read a good amount of literature in Old English), ignoring the cultural differences in both English and Japan and how that's reflected in the structure of the language (more specifically in honorifics), and ignoring that there has been efforts but they failed because it was more awkward than simply leaving it be and give a detail explanation on it and also give a glimpse on Japanese culture since the language is pretty crucial to it anyway.
If they want to do a more accurate translation, it's best to leave them in and explain their significance. They can leave them out if they so please, but dear god, don't replace them with awkward words either.
Nice calling me a fanbrat though seeing that you can debate without namecalling (or knowing what a fanbrat really is, I hope you don't call anyone who disagree with you that). Really a pity. I tired of trying to convince someone who refuse to listen why either.
Re: 54, 55
However, considering the fact that translations are meant to be for an English audience, I believe including honorifics reads sloppily and the only reason a lot of professional companies use them is because that is what fans have come to expect and demand, since they believe including them makes the translation 'more pure'.
Considering the fact that a majority of the fandom doesn't speak Japanese, though, and only learns it through companies catering to the English purist fanbase, I believe most of the people who religiously adhere to the rule that honorifics do not understand their role as much as they'd like to think they do.
Re: 54, 55
And the translation should be as accurate as it can be. There's no real reason why there shouldn't be any honorifics. It's important to the Japanese culture and how they communicate with each other. That's why they started it and why they kept it that way. This is before manga became a big boom as it is today. Plus a simple cultural note solves the problem anyway.
Like my example beforehand, was there any way you can translate that without using any awkward English. There is NO English equivalent to -chan or -kun without taking it out of context and making it more awkward than it should've been if you left it alone and/or beng retarded without omission. And omission is just as bad.
Plus, it's not like Japanese is the only laguage we do that in. We do that with Spanish as well. And I doubt the Japanese use more than -san translating American novels and comics and the such.
Re: 54, 55
Removing the honorifics does not remove the distinctly Japanese ideas, symbolism, and locales used in manga. The distinction can be just as easily made in the way characters address each other in terms of politeness and casualness, as I would have done in your example. The story and art itself would fill in the gaps. English, while lacking some of the levels of formality that Japanese does, has a far wider vocabulary that translators and adapters have at their disposal were they not torn between purists, pressure from above to make it 'hip' enough for their target audience, rushing to meet demand, and so on.
But, if given the time and effort, beautiful things can be done with adaptation. Take, for example, Gaiman's work on Princess Mononoke. Gaiman was able to adapt it into something that was incredibly true to the meaning of original without the pressure of keeping to the accuracy of the translation. Now, with the manga market as it is, no company has the time or money to mirror that, but there is proof that it can be done.
And I can't verify one way or another for your final point, as I keep my English comic reading in English.
Re: 54, 55
Like I said, the companies started it when they started to translate manga more accurately, the fans started to expected them in it. Case closed.
English might have a wider vocabulary, but when it comes up short to addressing people normally, it comes up short. Seriously, outside nicknames, people always used first names even with people they don't know well. The only times we're even using Mr./Miss/whatever is when we're in a professional setting or addressing someone much older than us. Hell, outside some jocks, we rarely address someone by their last names and that's because 1) it's more than one person with the same first name, 2) the first name is too plain and/or embarrassing, or 3) it's harder to say than the last name. Although more likely, a nickname would be used than that.
That's why most honorifics were deleted for the most part until companies started to translate more accurately knowing that it's a lot more accurate to leave in it because there's no clear English word for it. It does loses a factor in that it goes against a Japanese cultural factor. It's jarring to see a character going from calling one character, "Mizutani-san" in Japanese to "Ryouta" (and that it's not an accurate translation). Go read an volume of Yakitate!! Japan by Viz, and see how they translate "ossan" in English. It's extremely awkward to say in the least.
Mononoke is different because it was done in a time when most honorifics didn't exist but they did keep the Japanese names of monsters in them when they could've translated if they please.
Even English have limitation on what it can translate from a language very different from its own.
Re: 54, 55
Re: 54, 55