fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3546 ]

[ SECRET POST #3546 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3546 ⌋

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How do we deal with the fact that privilege, in addition to its other effects, actively makes it more difficult to try to work out equitable ways of doing things?

That probably doesn't make any sense. Let me give you an example to get at what I want to talk about. One possible example of male privilege: laundry. Say (as seems likely) that men are less likely to be required to do laundry, less likely to have been taught to do laundry, and less likely. That seems like a clear example of privilege as it's discussed: society has distorted itself into a shape where men are much less likely to be required to do a specific domestic chore, and has twisted around to impose that labor on women instead. And this operates less on the level of conscious decision-making, and more on the level of invisible assumptions and people drifting into societally ordained roles.

The question is, where do you go from there? How do you eliminate that kind of privilege? Because even if you get a man to realize that it's unfair that the burden of laundry falls largely on female shoulders, that still doesn't mean that he knows how to actually do the laundry, or that we know what an attitude towards laundry-doing that leads to an equitable distribution of labor looks like. And the most obvious solution here - for the women who know how to do laundry to help teach the men - is palpably flawed, in that it puts the burden of ameliorating the situation on the shoulders of the people who are already disadvantaged. But at the same time, the laundry still actually does need to be done, or else it's unhygienic and disease will spread everywhere and it'll be awful.

Okay, yes. Obviously, that's a limited and flawed metaphor - laundry isn't that important, and it's quite easy to learn - but I think it's a pattern that pops up pretty frequently around privilege. It's one thing to identify privilege. But privilege often goes along with ignorance - one of the effects of privilege is to shield some people from certain kinds of necessity and certain kind of knowledge, which means that there are often a lack of basic skills.

And so I think you run into this problem where you have one group of privileged people who really aren't any good at doing a certain thing. And it's important to do it, but it's also intensely hard to figure out how to actually do it for people who haven't before. For instance, I think this is a pattern that shows up with emotional labor, and a lot of things in that realm. And on the one hand, it's a result of privilege for someone not to know how to do it; on the other hand, whatever the source of their ignorance, learning how to do it is still really fucking hard.

So, any thoughts? How can people figure out how to start doing things they've never done before? How do you balance the need for people to understand and learn these things, and the growing pains that come with understanding and learning them, with the needs of people who are underprivileged in these regards?

I hope that makes sense...

Do your own gender studies 101 homework, anon.

I'm about to fall asleep so apologies if this is incoherent and lacking, but I'll just give a quick answer before I go:

I just tell people... Listen, man. You don't have to be ashamed of being privileged.
Acknowledge your privilege exists and try to be active in changing the status quo. Learn to recognize privilege.
Shut up and LISTEN. Listen to people who are woke. LEARN TO BE BETTER.
Use your power for good or don't do anything at all.
Most importantly, if you don't know what to do, don't prevent other people from trying to achieve a positive change. It's OK to watch from the sidelines, but obviously help is always appreciated.

TL;DR tell people to STFU and LISTEN

Because people are always more apt to LISTEN when you CAPSLOCK or YELL it at them.

Yeah, my thought is that I'm glad I'm not a brainwashed Marxist like you.

Oh for fuck's sake.

It is no more "male privilege" that I do the housework and cooking than it is "female privilege" that my husband does the dirty nasty sweaty jobs (such as below-freezing snow shoveling, 90-degree lawn mowing, other lawn care, oil changes, and general fixer-upper things around the house). It's a simple, logical division of labor. And we could switch those things if we wanted to and no one would say boo.

For the record, I do know how to do all the things my husband does (including oil changes for the cars), and he knows how to do all the things I do.

As I said above I don't think the laundry example is very serious - I mostly used it as an example because I think it's easy to see what's going on and simple.

Also, what I have in mind is less that women happen to be the one who does the laundry in a household, and more that in general men are less likely to know how to do it. That kind of thing. Obviously two people dividing up takes however they please is just whatever.

But any "simple" example is ridiculous because it completely ignores the complexity of an actual grownup relationship. If men "don't know how to do laundry" (or any other household chore), that's a failure of parenting, not society in general. My fifteen-year-old son knows how to do do laundry (and other household chores) because he's been taught, because I want him to be able function by himself when he leaves the house--and not be dependent on a woman.

Your entire premise is deeply flawed.

Parenting is a part of society. If there were a significant gender difference, on a society-wide statistical basis, in which kids get taught how to do laundry and which kids don't, that would be a society thing. Saying it's parenting doesn't mean it's not also part of society.

And, again, just to reiterate, very simplistic example here.

It's not necessarily "not knowing" how to do it :/

Personal anecdote:
When I was 12, my mum moved out. And from what I remember, I (afab) ended up effectively in charge of doing the laundry for the remaining family (dad and younger brother).
I'm fairly sure my brother knew how to do laundry at that point (he most definitely knows now), my dad probably did as well, and yet I was stuck with the bulk of it because I was "a girl".

My dad's still outsourcing his laundry to women as far as I know. (He mentioned doing just that in a phone call a few weeks ago, except with different words.) And he doesn't see anything wrong with that. :/
I'm glad my brother didn't pick up that attitude, although I suspect if things had gone differently he might have.

And apparently the women he's outsourcing his laundry to are fine with it. Otherwise they'd kick him and his dirty clothes to the curb, no?

Re: Question Bout Privilege

(Anonymous) - 2016-09-19 21:50 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Question Bout Privilege

(Anonymous) - 2016-09-19 21:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Question Bout Privilege

(Anonymous) - 2016-09-19 22:15 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Question Bout Privilege

(Anonymous) - 2016-09-19 22:41 (UTC) - Expand

A friend had to deal with a guy who got hired at a fast food place who refused to do any of the cooking and cleaning because "That's women's work."

He got grabbed by the back of the neck, marched over to the full dish sink, and barked at that it WAS his job and he'd damn well do it.

He quit the next day. But no, it's totally just isolated incidents of bad parenting.

That's exactly what your example is, though. A single isolated anecdotal incident.

Agree or disagree: more men have that kind of attitude than women do.

And maybe it's time for women to stand up on our hind legs and start telling these guys to do their own shit, if it's that important. If you're a doormat, then people (male people and female people both) are going to walk all over you.

If you don't want to do his laundry, then don't. It is not that hard.

And if he doesn't want to shovel your walk or mow your yard, then I guess he doesn't have to do that either.

Not really. Since we're using anecdotal evidence here, I know quite a few women who flat out refuse to try and help with some heavy lifting around the house, not because they actually are too weak (I know a great example who is basically twice the size of her boyfriend and definitely not a delicate flower) but because "no, that's the man's job!".

Re: Question Bout Privilege

(Anonymous) - 2016-09-19 21:52 (UTC) - Expand

NA

But it's not anecdotal, because it's the same old shit. It's bullshit to look at behaviour that devalues and stigmatizes "women's" work as below men, behaviour that's been studied and documented and fought against for hundreds of years, and claim it's just some weirdo and not actually about gender at all because we're all enlightened now. People don't change that quickly.

While we're being anecdotal, I work in an industry with traditionally male and female roles and I've seen women pull the same shit about "masculine" jobs they don't want to do. But people never say it outright, they just make it clear through their behaviour that the reason they should be given another task is they're just not "suited" to this one, look at what a terrrible job they're doing.

It is anecdotal. Anon basically wrote "I know someone who knew someone who did this once" - and this specific example is the very definition of anecdotal evidence, no matter how much you want to pretend that it's somehow not.
And LOL "hundreds of years". You may want to research that again. It's a very popular myth that womens' work was seen as somehow lesser when it absolutely wasn't in a lot of cases.

I would say the most important thing is attitude. The privileged person/group needs to be willing to take responsibility for their ignorance and show a willingness to do what research they can on their own, and be appreciative and willing to compensate people who are willing and able to help them. And also to pitch in and help others when appropriate.

Attitude goes a long way. Like I remember seeing an adorable series of tweets where a man just moved in with his GF and he was super-excited because she was teaching him all this stuff about taking care of the house that no one else had bothered to ever tell him and he was so excited and happy and praising her. There was no "Lol gf tried to tell me how to use the washing machine and I screwed all her clothes up on purpose and now I never have to do it again. I am a genius!" Or making fun of her, or being angry about it, or anything like that.

that still doesn't mean that he knows how to actually do the laundry

This just in, some guys apparently think they're too stupid to use Wikihow or the back of the detergent bottle

Well, yeah, the example does fall down a bit at that point, like I said.

I wish I'd thought to tell my ex to fucking google it when he made pathetic eyes to me about how laundry was so COMPLICATED and HARD and he was sure he would RUIN all his clothes...

All I can say is, I would never knowingly date a man who didn't already know how to do laundry.

the burden of laundry falls largely on female shoulders

I'm gonna bypass most of this conversation and merely comment that I read this as the burden of laundry falls largely on female soldiers about four times before I got it right. I thought you had some kind of study to cite from about who's doing the barracks laundry, and how the soldiers feel about it.

That would be a much more interesting topic.

I read 'female soldiers' too.

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