[ SECRET POST #3556 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3556 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.
[Lord of the Rings trilogy]



__________________________________________________



02.
[pride and prejudice; unnamed others]


__________________________________________________



03.
[Endeavour]


__________________________________________________



04.
[Tim Curry / Movies: IT, Rocky Horror Picture Show, Clue, Legend]


__________________________________________________



05.


__________________________________________________



06.
[Loud House]


__________________________________________________



07.


__________________________________________________



08.
[MST3K]














Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 19 secrets from Secret Submission Post #508.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

It's here, it's here, the moment caerbannog has been waiting for!

Tell me your thoughts, F!S, and ask any questions you may have. I personally would be especially interested in how you think this book compares to other YA books, whether or not you are a fan of the genre, along with your thoughts on the characters and world(building).

Some thoughts and questions of my own are in a reply.

In addition: later this week (probably Friday) I'll start taking recs for November, so gather your ideas :)

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

So I wasn't quite sure what to expect going into this book.

My first impression upon reading the synopsis was "wow so ~~~edgy". (I wasn't really wrong about that wrt the way Katsa's abilities were portrayed, imo.) I also immediately wondered how it would compare to books like The Hunger Games and Divergent. (For full disclosure, I liked both books, though THG more, and felt Divergent had more problems and the sequels had major issues. I'm a sucker for weird YA worldbuilding though.)

I also thought "the book will be bad and I'll like it anyway". I don't know if I'd call it bad, but it wasn't a masterpiece. I had a few issues with it, such as some problems with the prose (namely all the sentence fragments...wtf) and a few issues with the two main characters being basically superpowered compared to the rest of the cast, which I thought was highlighted rather than tempered by Katsa's Kryptonite in the form of King Leck. I do think the effect was tempered somewhat by the book treating their superpoweredness as something they genuinely struggled with at times, though.

That aside...I still liked the book and had fun reading it. I loved a few things in particular - the imagery, the dialogue (particularly how the main characters had very distinct speaking voices), and the details that were enough to be engaging without being distracting. I also liked the plot twist at the end with Po, which is to say it was kind of a gut punch, and made me sad lol.

My favorite character hands-down is Bitterblue, which makes me want to read the sequel solely because I know it is about her, though I'm not sure I will enjoy her character so much when she is 18. I also am not sure how I feel about reading about Bitterblue in a romance, especially one as tropey-sounding as the synopsis of her book makes me think it will be, but eh. I did like the romance between Katsa and Po, though. I mean, it was 110% predictable, but it still hit my buttons, heh.

Some thoughts on the characters...

Katsa: very stereotypical in some ways. I thought her "I will never get married/have kids!" was very similar to your stock YA heroine, though it was important to her character. I sort of hoped at the beginning that she'd change her mind about the former and marry Po, though I wanted her to stay without wanting kids. At the end though I feel it would send a bad message and mess up her character to have her change her mind at this point. I felt like she must have been way more fucked up psychologically than the way she was written given her past, so that was a bit weird. I liked her determination to see Bitterblue to safety, her forming of the Council to try to counteract Randa under his nose, and her choice to cut her hair and keep it that way.

Po: honestly, one of the few book characters I could see myself being fairly attracted to, if you make him out to be a bit less muscly than he probably is. I think he was supposed to have dark hair, but I kept imagining him with a complexion almost identical to Marik Ishtar from YGO, just with a less douchey face, gold-and-silver eyes, and shorter (a couple inches long) hair. Maybe it's the jewelry lol. Lienid culture was interesting to me and I liked how different it was from the rest of them, which makes sense since iirc that kingdom was on an island. He had the most interesting speaking voice, and was perhaps the most dynamic character. Him going blind kind of broke my heart.

Bitterblue: MY FAVE. She really was written as a child - a royal child, who knew how to take charge, but a child nonetheless, who was scared of men but began to trust them when Po earned her trust; who was scared of the weapons she held until taught to use them; who was scared of dying but pressed on because she had no other choice. Her scene right after Leck died was amazing, especially her line "I'm not a princess; I'm the queen of Monsea". She knew what was up lol.

Randa: I kinda thought he was going to be the "evil king" in the synopsis, but he turned out to be a mostly irrelevant douchebag. His main purpose was clearly for Katsa's character development. I hope he gets taken down in a sequel though; he's an asshole.

Raffin: can I take a minute to mention how much I love cousin relationships? Especially m/f ones? gaaah. Raffin and Katsa are great. Without Raffin I doubt Katsa would have stayed sane, and his intention to do what he wanted even if it pissed off his dad was charming.

Giddon: I really thought he might turn out to be an antagonist after how poorly he took Katsa's rejection. What a self-absorbed, idiotic shitweasel. I couldn't stand the way he talked to Katsa like he knew her better than she did, he needed her protection despite being literally the most dangerous person in the world, and how he treated her badly (always criticizing etc.) when supposedly in love with her. I still wonder if he'll turn up as a villain in a later book. He's a medieval Nice Guy and exactly the sort of personality type to take rejection as a personal slight. Well-written though, for that.

Leck: very good villain for being a psychological horror more than a physical one. The very idea of someone like him actually existing is creepy as all get out. Bitterblue's description of his psychological torture of her and Ashen with injured animals and servants was horrifying. :(

Those are a few of my thoughts - what are yours, F!S?

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

Next commenter here: Her scene right after Leck died was amazing, especially her line "I'm not a princess; I'm the queen of Monsea". She knew what was up lol.

Yes, she's a queen all right! It's the sort of thing the young Elizabeth I would have said, except that she wasn't a queen at that age.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[belladonna_took]

Yay I am here for this!

This was the second time I've read the book.
It was a mostly enjoyable read, very easy, but as much as I liked it, not much of it stayed with me after I read it either time. I had to make notes for this because I knew it wasn't going to stick.

I wasn’t deeply invested in the characters.
Katsa. Best everything ever! Super good looking! Men get jealous over her! She's unkillable or something that we don't know all the limits of because it seems to just get more amazing for the convenience of the plot!
I do appreciate characters that don't want children or marriage in settings where it's an expectation that they should, but at times I felt like it was a bit overstated. We get it. You don't want it. I did like that she didn't change her mind because of Po though.

Po was a bit similar in that they're both super amazing and special and sexy. They were both moody, dramatic idiots at different points. I know I'm saying a lot of negative things. I didn't hate them, but I did wonder at times how many pages one of them was going to sulk for.

Some of the names of places and people were a bit ridiculous sounding. Tbh I can't remember most of them now. It was in my notes though so it's going in.

The romance wasn’t all that romantic. It wasn't the focus for me. I liked the friendship between Katsa and Bitterblue and their escape more.

The pacing of the book was slightly off. I feel like the writing got more confident and her style was more consistent as the novel progressed. Google says this was her first book, so that makes sense. Maybe it would have benefited from some harder editing.
Overall I enjoyed it. I think the premise was interesting. It’s certainly not the best thing I’ve ever read but it’s far from the worst.

Leck is a scary bad guy. I will say that.

I would have liked to know more about Raffin and Oll, and maybe had a bit more follow up on a few plot points. Raffin and Bann were gay for each other, right? Also what were the other kingdoms thinking about this whole council business and the Leck thing?

I should get around to reading Bitterblue at some point. I read Fire once but I found it pretty forgettable.

Thanks for running the book club discussion! I had fun reading it and I want to hear what other people think.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[shortysc22]

I was pleasantly surprised at just HOW much I really enjoyed this book, I couldn't wait to finish it. I thought it was better than a lot of similar YA books ( I didn't care for Truthwitch, which had a similar set up in the beginning)

I loved the characters. They were all fairly well-rounded and I love the relationships here between Katsa and Raffin. I love how much Katsa and Po were desperately trying to take care of Bitterblue.

I don't know how I'd feel about the sequels because I really want more of Katsa and Po because they were great together. I loved the pacing of this book and I'm really glad we voted this one in. I agree with you on the prose a bit but it didn't keep me from reading it. I guess one way of describing this book would be that it's a good beach read. I was entertained by it, but it's not a masterpiece. Overall a good book club choice.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

With Leck he was such a great psychological thriller that I, idk, was expecting more when he caught them? I was thinking of Bitterblue saying he was patient and expecting Katsa to spend a few days fighting against him mentally, Bitterblue trying to get her to come to her senses, maybe the cut up animals explained.

But then Leck was dead and that was it :x

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I enjoyed it! I thought it was going to be a Mary Sue story, but it isn't, not really, despite the eyes. My main beef was with the pacing, which was uneven, I thought, starting very slow, and then the final confrontation was over in in a couple of pages. But the bits in the middle were great... OK, a lot of the rest was great as well.

I also had a bit of an issue with how Katsa managed to remain a good person despite all that her uncle required her to do; and why did he trust her around him at all? Another Grace-related bump in the road for me was the idea that not feeling pain is a survival trait, which it ain't.
I loved the very vivid descriptions of Monsea (the names in this story are something else!) And the voyage to the island and the lead-in to the final confrontation had me completely fooled – I actually gasped out loud when it turned out that he'd anticipated her move. Creepy guy. But I loved the way she stopped thinking clearly as soon as he got at her – that's very true to life.

Young Bitterblue is great – very royal and self-possessed when it comes to the crunch.

The ending was a bit Jane Eyre, I thought, but it was certainly a surprise to me!

All in all, I enjoyed it a lot.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

Yay I'm glad you enjoyed it! Bitterblue is an amazing kid, only 10 years old but she knows her power! I liked her moments of surliness too, considering all the shit she was going through.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

She wasn't a Mary Sue but I did have a few issues with how she was written. Hard to describe - but I feel like she would have been way more fucked up tbh. I certainly don't think I could have done better myself though.

Thanks for your comment! I love all the enthusiastic responses :)

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

Oh my god I slept in IM HERE IM HERE.

The excerpt was very edgelord, I agree. So at the start I was a bit "hmm" at it was a bit clunky to start off with. Not overly bad, just the constant presence tense combined with some very short sentences. But either it smoothed out or I got used to it or it drew me in.

At the start I mostly liked Katsa when she was angry and not struggling with her moral dilemmas and confusions. I didn't like Po at all because he seemed to know too much but his Grace explained that. But the prose smoothed out a bit and I was enjoying it except for the obvious Katsa feelings about Po, I was kind of dreading that upcoming romance. It was mostly annoying and I felt it was interrupting the flow of the story the bit. But I did really like it didn't turn into a love triangle and she quickly rejected Gideon. Whom I didn't like much in his brief moments, but he was a pretty shallow character. So that was a relief.

The bits after that...her potential romance with Po quickly squashed into anger at his Grace - I superficially enjoyed those moments as she struggled with her anger, her thoughts, her morals and for some reason unlike the start of the book I preferred her introspections more this time around.

I really enjoyed the travelling bits, both to and from Leck's kingdom. And I was really pleased her Grace turned out to be Survival, not killing! I had thought earlier in the book it was weird that she was basically superpowered and not sleeping etc. I did like the few pages of her pondering the difference between her and average people. I wouldn't mind more of that stuff tbh, the acknowledgement that she is far beyond the others and learning how and why. I think it fed into her taking more care and empathy with Bitterblue versus Bitterblue's grandfather she nearly rescued into exhaustion. Just these two women/girls surviving is really checking a bunch of boxes for me. Especially when it got down to her mental plannings, her creations in ugly lion clothing, then running across a snowfield all day. Okay the last bit was a bit hmm, but no worse than many other overpowered-with-angst main characters so i'll let it slide.

Towards the end I felt it got clunky and stilted again. I'm thinking perhaps the author isn't that great with dialogue, or multiple characters on page, as that is when it seems to happen? Then they arrived at Po's castle and the ending happened, it was done. So the rest of it afterwards was pretty rushed I thought. I'm not sure how I feel about Po's blindness, my first thought on mention of his eyes was the knock to the head had disabled his grace or knocked it funny. Him seeing everything mentally I'm having difficulty swallowing.

I also disliked in the chapter straight after Leck's death the very first line made something like "and by nearly telling the truth Leck was killed" - too spoonfeeding for me.

Oh, I think I like Katsa's "I'll never marry" mantra, mostly because I identify with that desire for freedom and not being locked to one person :P

and while in the middle, her new emotional discoveries with conflict over Po were annoying me, towards the end I was okay with her crying and laughing and frustrations because it felt like all her experiences over the book had collected and helped her break out of the "stone" acting, not just her dramas with Po, but the physical and mental exhaustion of saving Bitterblue, Leck's short lived overpowerment etc etc.

Overall, looking forward to reading the next book that I conveniently have at my house. The store lady warned me Fire is the weakest in the trilogy and the third book, Bitterblue, is the best.

Characterwise, I really liked Katsa and Bitterblue. Po I became amendable to. I'd like to hear more on Po's mum? Especially on her reaction to Po's eyes? She seems a very head screwed on sort.

Questions!
There was a line that confused me, something about how if it was any other time and place the mountian lion would have killed her? That confused me a bit because she was, what, on a mountain in a snow storm basically taken by surprise. How is that a better chance of survival than healthy in an environment she is familiar with?

Also Bitterblue and Po's (Greening)'s name seem so different to others of their culture. I'm wondering if all of them have a colour themed name and are introduced by really short nicknames or if Bitterblue and Po are the exceptions? Because Bitterblue's name really stands out compared to the rest.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[shortysc22]

I just have to say thank you for campaigning so hard for this book, I enjoyed it a lot.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

Also I was surprised this was a debut novel, I didn't realise. Not bad for a first effort!

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

I superficially enjoyed those moments as she struggled with her anger, her thoughts, her morals

I usually hate reading about one MC being really mad at the other especially when they're current or obviously future LIs. But I didn't really mind it here, because I thought it was honest and it showed that they could go through hell and high water with each other and come out okay. It was well done.

Additionally I'd love to explore those with mind reading Graces (that are public knowledge), their role in the world and how they live their lives. Katsa doesn't trust them (except Po), and I get the sense they're generally not trusted, and even feared by many. It might be even worse than being in Katsa's position. And I almost got a vibe of "I may be a monstrous killer, but at least I'm not a mind reader". Like that was the only thing that would make society hate her more.

Also there are clearly different kinds of mind readers.

Yeah, now I really want more of this lol

Agreed so hard about Katsa and Bitterblue <333

I did feel a little weird about the Ultimate Reveal of her and Po's Graces. I felt the synopsis was rather misleading with both of them having *totally* different Graces from what the reader was originally led to believe. I loved Po's reveal, probably more than Katsa's, but in the end it was like "these guys aren't just strong, they're SUPERPOWERED!". Still, as I said in my comment, it was grounded by the way they struggled with their Graces.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

Strongly disagree with the "store lady" as I liked Fire most(and read it first) and thought Bitterblue was the least engaging book of the three. It wasn't bad, but it seemed flabby and missing something that made the other two so enjoyable for me.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I liked it! I had some minor issues with it largely related to the parts of it that felt very "typical YA novel" but it had enough going for it that I was able to enjoy it besides that.

- Katsa: I'll be honest, I really didn't like her at first. In the end she still wasn't my favorite, but there were a few things that redeemed her for me - for one thing, her "quick temper/wants to be violent at everyone/cold and aloof" thing was not really portrayed as a good thing or brushed aside, the way it would with a lot of badly written protagonists, and was reasonable given her upbringing. Like, her knee-jerk reaction to hit people when they made her mad wasn't because she was a Cool, Strong Female Character but because she was a messed-up person raised from childhood to be a killer. So that was good. Also, I really liked the reveal of her Grace because it made her ~~totally amazing~~ skills a little less Sue-ish. Plus, the narrative challenged her in ways that made her Grace interesting and not overpowered. Leck was a good villain cause his power was something she couldn't deal with at all.

- Po: Liked him a lot. Their romance was a bit cliche, but not the worst I've seen - I did genuinely enjoy the progression of their friendship, and the way they worked to rebuild trust and communication after she discovered his real Grace was well-done. The final twist was also great, though I wish he hadn't been absent for the last part of the book - not that I didn't enjoy Katsa's journey with Bitterblue, but removing him from the narrative felt really awkward, idk.

- Leck's end felt really abrupt, and I also wish we'd found out more about his motivations than just "He's creepy and evil and likes to torture animals and people!" That said, what we found out about his habits - and him threatening Bitterblue and her mother with tortured animals and servants - were really, really creepy. I just felt like his fixation with Bitterblue was a little poorly explained, and should have had a little more to it than just "he likes torturing small animals and children" given the lengths he went to trying to get her. Also, his ending felt very... abrupt. I'm not sure what would have made it better, but the final confrontation felt really rushed and didn't have much time to build tension.

- I really liked Bitterblue, and thought her character development was frankly the best in the novel. She'd really come into her own by the end there, and I loved her relationship with Katsa. Oh oh and I loved the Lienid sailors, especially the captain, they were awesome.

I wish we'd gotten more of some of the characters in early parts of the novel, especially Raffin and Oll. Oh and as I mentioned in an early comment, I definitely thought Raffin and Bann were gay, especially at the scene where Katsa wanted to know if Raffin was secretly in love with her, and both of them started laughing. Dunno if that was intended, but it's my headcanon now haha.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

It was very definitely a YA book and in retrospect I guess the clunky bits could be explained away as a "debut" book. I didn't realise that until I finished reading it and had the author saying so. So, kudos to you author! Will hopefully get refined and smoother as they become more practiced writing and figure out their style.

With Po, I think I went the opposite, I preferred when he was absent from the story except as thoughts and feelings and found it a bit awkward when he was present. But I suspect that's more because I liked Katsa but was indifferent to Po. So Po being present was less Katsa and Bitterblue and angsty-survival IMO.

I do really like how they met. It was cliche and overdramatic. But I still really liked how Katsa and Po met.

Agree with Leck, I feel like he kind of glossed over a bit after such a build up. Especially since I now realise towards the start of the book his rumours were alluded to - but in an appropriate fashion from Katsa's point of view and it really isn't until Po comes in that the way he is regarded in the store changes. And I like that, so the abrupt ending was...well, abrupt.

I could probably read a whole book on Katsa, Bitterblue and the sailors. Maybe one day the captain could get her own book, sounds like she has many stories!

I can go with Raffin and Bann being secretly gay. I confess, I didn't give them much mind as characters except as her friends.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

I had some minor issues with it largely related to the parts of it that felt very "typical YA novel"

Out of curiosity, what parts were those? :3

Love your assessment of Katsa, especially how her violent reflexes are a result of her fucked up upbringing and not just Being A Badass Teenager. lol. That's a really good point.

I love how Katsa and Po became close as friends before becoming lovers. Like, really love it. And there is so much more to their relationship overall than the romance.

and I also wish we'd found out more about his motivations than just "He's creepy and evil and likes to torture animals and people!"

I just felt like his fixation with Bitterblue was a little poorly explained

This is true! I really wonder what it is he wanted with her. It was stated that he liked spending time with women and thus implied that he was something of a playboy (surely rather easy for him to do...ugh...guhghhhhh now that I think about it could anyone even really consent to sleeping with him?????) but I really don't think his intentions towards Bitterblue were sexual (and he's enough of a monster as it is). Hmm.

As for Leck himself though I think the sequel actually explores his backstory a bit? I can see why Bitterblue would want to find out more about him, after all.

Personally, one detail I'd really like to know is did he ever actually lose his covered-up eye, and if so, how? He seems ruthless enough to be willing to destroy it himself to hide his Grace, but it could easily have happened in a fight or accident too. I have to think if it wasn't destroyed, someone would have figured it out at some point, but maybe not (and maybe he could use his Grace to cover it up anyway even if they did).

And yeah while it might have been better for the story for him to be alive more at the end I was very relieved when he died. He was that poisonous and creepy. D: And in a way I liked that he didn't have much page time, so to speak, for himself because it made him an even creepier psychological horror villain. It was the fear of him and his power that gripped Katsa even when he wasn't there. His influence reached far beyond himself.

Bitterblue was so great <3

If there was one minor character (besides Raffin, if he counts as minor, strictly speaking) that I'd want to learn more of, it was Captain Faun. How did she discover her Grace? How did she become a captain? I love her position; all of her men are clearly loyal and protective as fuck but also completely respect her authority. How did she earn that? How long as she been at sea? I admit I love the "commanding and confident gray-haired lady badass in charge" trope...

I think I share your headcanon about Raffin and Bann. Makes me want to get to know them both more!

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I was really hoping someone would say they hated the fuck out of this book.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

You could have read it too anon, and said you hated? Then we could argue over whether it's not a great literary piece but enjoyable enough in its own right.

I am glad it wasn't an utter piece of shit, since that was a real risk ahaha! How embarrassing would that be.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[diet_poison]

Did you? If so, why? Genuinely curious

are you thinking of the anon who hated last month's book? hey, discussion is discussion, and opinions are subjective

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

As the anon who hated the Novik book last month and wrote an inflammatory (though not entirely serious) comment about it, I have to say, I didn't even attempt Graceling because I could tell from the synopsis that I would hate it (which wasn't the case with Novik's book), and I didn't want to be a Debbie Downer because caerbannog was so excited about it.

But, come on, I can't hold up the book snobbery on my own. If you want to see some book hating, you have to participate! We need all the commenters and comments we can get.

However, I will be reading Dracula in October and I have high expectations! \o/

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I thought the prose was clunky and the naming was cringeworthy enough to put me off from the get-go. "Middluns"? "Leck City"? Do they change the names of their capitals every time a new rule comes to the throne? That's got to be confusing AF.

And Bitterblue is totally the kind of godawful name I fully expect some hipster parent to give to their unfortunate child.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[caerbannog]

Oh also, worldbuilding. I was very sceptical about the whole idea of Graces but came around to in the end. I think as mentioned upthread, Katsa and Po are superpowered even among those with graces. I assume because Po's lets him predict damn near everything and Katsa's grace is pretty much "staying alive" - tbh her Grace reminds me of Darwin in the Xmen, I always thought he had a really interesting power and wanted to see more about it.

So I've come around to the graces and their special, unique eyes. Especially since aside from at the start, the eyes are not lingered on overly as to become annoying and repetitive.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I did like how most of them weren't terribly overpowered, in fact aside from the mindreading/precognitive ones they were mostly just enhanced normal skills. Like fighting or swimming. Of course that only makes Katsa and Po stand out more with their special unique Graces haha.

Though with Katsa's Grace for (supposedly) killing, I expected her to be able to like, insta-murder with her mind. I was glad it was more unmagical than that.

Re: Book club - GRACELING discussion!!!

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't read the book, but I have a question. Is the whole Grace thing, chosen ones with special skills etc., a kind of religious theme?