[ SECRET POST #3732 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3732 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 12 secrets from Secret Submission Post #533.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

You sound like you just want to share the original, groundbreaking opinion that everyone who likes this show is a silly straight fangirl who just wants teh yaoiz and doesn't care about real LGBT people; ignoring that the majority of people who talk about representation and this show say that it's personal for them (us) because we're queer and feel respectfully represented. So, cool story?

SA

[(Anonymous)]

And the anon two comments above me is right, there's little to no wank about who tops. Kind of a tipoff that you don't really pay as much attention to the fandom as you're pretending.

...Yes there is.

[(Anonymous)]

It's everywhere. Like I said in another comment, a fight breaks out literally every time a new doujinshi is posted on that mangareader site and it becomes a literal battleground wherein nobody is talking about the doujinshi and everyone is screaming about how there's too many Yuuri x Viktor or too many Viktor x Yuuri things and the opposite is OBVIOUSLY superior and then there's a few "Por que no los dos?" people getting absolutely ignored by both sides.

I've seen wank about fanfiction involving it.

I've seen tumblr wank multiple times.

People even wank about it on fucking 4chan when posting YOI porn to jerk off to. A lot.

[(Anonymous)]

Why are you guys ignoring actual LGBT stories written by actual LGBT authors and choose to focus on the one show created by straight women aimed to straight women?

I still can't believe that no one is translating Sorairo Flutter for instance. As far as I know it's the first shonen manga written by a gay author about a gay love story. Published in a shonen magazine. It's the first time something like this happens, it's making history, and everyone is ignoring it. I know some of the people who claim to care that much about LGBT representation in the YOI fandom know Japanese, I wish they would focus on the actual LGBT story instead.

[(Anonymous)]

How do you know they are ignoring those stories?
And there is still a difference between a niche publication very few people read, even in Japan, and a fairly popular anime release.

[(Anonymous)]

YOI has thousands of fans. Those LGBT stories by LGBT authors, not so much. It's pretty obvious that there are lots of people who claims to watch YOI for the LGBT representation are ignoring the LGBT stories by LGBT authors.

[(Anonymous)]

That does sound interesting, anon. But you seem to be seeking out conflict between the two unnecessarily. I'm sure most of us would be interested if we knew about and could read or watch it.

[(Anonymous)]

No one is translating it because it's a very recent manga from a not well known author? Give it some time, and maybe a dedicate fan (or a company willing to get the distribution rights in English) will change that.

(That being said, this is the first time I heard about it and you're not making me want to read it.
Hint: if you want people to give it a chance, talk about what it is about instead of sealing it like as a chance to get brownie points.

[(Anonymous)]

NA

Hint: if you want people to give it a chance, talk about what it is about instead of sealing it like as a chance to get brownie points.

That's literally the whole point of the argument for YOI. I have no issue with people liking YOI, but stop pretending it's actual groundbreaking LGBT representation and using it for "brownie points" instead of admitting more of the same dumb "uwuuuu they touch each other a lot and stare lovingly at one another" subtexty crap that's been forced down LGBT fan's throats for years at this point.

People can talk until they're blue in the face about how it's super groundbreaking (while pretending NO.6 didn't come first and didn't actually seal the fucking deal) but it's pretty telling that the "gay ice skating anime" had very little explicit (not sexual, textual) gay in it. The cut-away kiss shots, the purposeful coyness regarding calling their relationship what it is, etc. Apparently it's possible to write a story in which being gay is no different from being straight...and then they forget the actual gayness. Maybe the director wants to pretend she's made a LGBT utopia, but for a lot of fans it just felt like a hand-wave of the issues (especially for many Russian LGBT fans who I've spoken to who feel like Viktor was a real slap in the face while they fight to be seen as worthy of human rights, something many of them are afraid won't happen in their lifetimes, Viktor was less "fun escape" and more "soul-crushing reminder that this will NEVER be their reality"), combined with still pulling the stupid coy shit that straight couples in anime aren't subjected to with anywhere near the same regularity that LGBT characters are.

NAYRT

[(Anonymous)]

Without any horse in the actual secret debate, I just googled Sorairo Flutter and maybe there isn't as much talk about it because I couldn't find anything more than the premise (which is interesting and something I would totally read) but no scans or translations or even anything to indicate it will be available to buy in English.

As bad as it sounds, it's hard for people to get into something if they don't have a way of reading it in their native language (unless they're also relatively fluent or able in the language it's printed in).

[(Anonymous)]

Preach. I see some fangirls getting annoyed that they are being called out for their fake and shallow "support".

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, how dare they enjoy something that's popular. Ugh. I mean, how dare they not want to go searching for niche writing that's harder to find.

[(Anonymous)]

omg get over it.

Signed, a gay person

[(Anonymous)]

just googled Sorairo Flutter and I don't wanna read about fat gays

[(Anonymous)]

That's the webmanga, main guy doesn't look fat in the manga remake

http://www.jp.square-enix.com/magazine/joker/browse/m/sorairo_f_01/

Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

Here's a hint: The fact that a bunch of bisexual cis girls (and it is overwhelmingly bisexual cis girls, that is the vast majority of queer women in fandom) feel a story about gay men is "personal" to them doesn't override the fact that a lot of actual gay and bi men, cis and trans, have mentioned that it feels fetishistic and very "female gaze-y" to them. And it should be pretty fucking clear it's made for the female gaze when you compare it to works done by and for actual gay men. Like the anon said below, people are ignoring actual groundbreaking work (supporting an openly gay author writing openly gay characters is going to do A LOT MORE for actual representation than jilling off over pretty ice skating boys). YOI is packaged to appeal to the lowest common denominator (like most popular animes are), so acting like it's some groundbreaking thing when a)it isn't even the first time it's been done, and b)for a lot of LGBT people it feels like "teh yaoiz 2.0" is pretty stupid.

Like the damn show. But stop pretending it isn't explicitly made for the female gaze and it doesn't represent LGBT people correctly in Japan OR the US. The Japanese fandom is overwhelmingly cis girls too lol. The actual LGBT community in Japan has been pretty lukewarm on it. I follow a ton of male LGBT anime fans on twitter and the response was underwhelming.

I didn't go into this show looking to hate it. I wish I felt it represented queer men better and didn't feel more like titillating fanservice for the girl who has Free! burnout.

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god this whining. Real life gay person here, and chill the fuck out. It's not about gay strip clubs. It's about ice skating, and has somewhat subtle romance between the two leads. Any alleged gay person who claims this so so "fetishy and female gazey" (and I'm pretty sure these criticisms don't even actually exist) needs to chill the fuck out. There's literally no fetish in the anime.

And we get it, you're super edgy with your "lowest common denominator" shrieking, but no one is obligated to like anything. No one is obligated to go out and support certain works for social justice purposes, if anything, that is tacky and fake as fuck. It's fandom, people can like whatever the hell they like, and anyone who claims Yuri on Ice is somehow offensive clearly has never had real problems in life, let alone real queer problems.

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

It's not about gay strip clubs.

Holy fuck is that all gay people are to you? What a weird fucking criticism.


Any alleged gay person who claims this so so "fetishy and female gazey" (and I'm pretty sure these criticisms don't even actually exist) needs to chill the fuck out.

Lol k.

There's literally no fetish in the anime.

Lmfao the entire anime is basically "look super cute queer boys with queer subtext". The gratuitous ass shot and hot springs scenes and the strip club scenes...

I don't know about the other gay people you hang out with but my friends don't hang out at gay strip clubs or get uber drunk and perform female-gazey strip teases (that the artists for the show traced from existing photos that they didn't have licenses for without permission anyway lol).

But no fetish. Right.

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[alwaysbeenasmiler]

+ 5 to my internet!

<3 thank you!

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

No, YOI isn't trying to be a show about representation (and let's be honest here, no anime or manga will have the right kind of representation western audience want); yes, it's made for a female audience.

And? It's not pretending to be something that it isn't.

I get you're annoyed at fans that put the show on a pedestal, but that's on those fans, not on the show.

If you want something about LGBT community and representation in Japan, then read manga created for that purpose instead of commercial stuff.

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

The problem is like 90% of the fanbase isn't nearly this reasonable. I disagree with almost nothing you've said, but when 90% of the fandom wants to pretend it's a totally legit queer LGBT romance representation extravaganza that is the best thing ever and any LGBT person who takes issue with it is just a big meanie or (my favourite) not REALLY LGBT, you can't say that's a welcoming or productive environment.

I do think YOI isn't above criticism, and I also think pretending like it's some big cultural divide thing is doing a huge disservice when we already have some shows that feature queer characters that don't do the things LGBT people have taken issue with, but that's another thing entirely.

I do read manga created "for that purpose", but that's the whole point about representation, LGBT people shouldn't be relegated to a special bookshelf and special indy production companies.

We're allowed to be commercial and mainstream while still having authentic LGBT storylines that aren't created to pander solely to fujoshis or horny straight dudes.

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

Another gay dude and married (commented someone above as well). This show is not much of a queer bait as ... pro figure skating is same (be it for any sexuality, looks same, it's always pandering and some sort of art / dance / sport mix where flashier, campier routines and costumes are favoured). My mum's a fun of figure skating so grown up with it. Unfortunately, that anime kind of butchered the skating parts at some point (as said above - seen 4 episodes) that they seemed chaotic to me and boring. Found this portrayal same as shortened versions of competitions but just too yawny.

Now, you do make a good point on female-gaze in general. Yaoi is a protest made by Japanese women to tackle toxic tropes as hentai and at some point it just got popular elesewhere but the idea was 'let's subject dudes to same tropes we see'. 90s had most of plotty gay manga - some not realistic like "Fake" and some a tiny bit better like "Banana Fish". The one that a total mix was "Cruel Got Reigns". Forgot who made "Devilman" but that's been very male-gazey psychological horror - did not read as drawing style bothers me for some reason.

Now, what's that author being ignored that you mean? Hopefully someone I didn't see but most stuff goes into bara territory and here my vanity kicks in - absolutely can't read any comic where muscly dudes are mains ... or watch such film or show or cartoon. I like guys with long, glorious locks; tall and slim and a bit nerdy *sighs*. Why yes, that's also my husband - within first week we known each other, he sent me a photo of his back with hair flowing down it. Bagged him right there and then :| .

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Hey, another married queer guy on here! :D

I don't know enough about pro-skating as a sport to comment on the technical aspects of it, but considering it's been proven that stuff they've gotten praised for about the technical aspects of things have been plagiarized (the stripping scenes have been traced directly from licensed photos they don't own the rights to, a bunch of merch features it too, etc, there's a whole website in Japanese that shows a bunch of these issues), I'm surprised they messed up the technical aspects if only because I would have thought they would have just ganked it from somewhere else. o.O

Also, Banana Fish! Boy that's a name I haven't heard in awhile. While I think the ending was bonkers and stupid because the author admitted that she ended it that way because River Phoenix, the guy she based Ash off of, died and not because it was originally going to end that way, I also think Banana Fish was pretty progressive for the time. It was a fragile gay love story with a kid who was badly abused and still had enough trust to reach out, and Eiji was endearingly authentic and neither ever fell into "yaoi trope" territory. The fact that Eiji never really got over Ash and hoarded his memories of him in the epilogue makes things even more bittersweet I think. (The only part of that clusterfuck of an ending and epilogue that I can forgive is that Sing and Akira (the young girl) meet for the first time, and Akira later becomes Sing's wife, Yoshida provided "wedding photos" in some promotional material.)

While I think Banana Fish had a whole lot of "WTF" moments about it, I will say I think it's a good example of how to make a gay love story that doesn't have a "female gaze" to it. The narrative felt very neutral, it had many things that both male and female fans enjoyed. There's a reason it's considered a cult classic by many in Japan.

Someone mentioned Sorairo Flutter above. It's a manga that's based off of a webcomic done by a gay male author. I haven't gotten a chance to go through it yet, but I'll likely get a private translation done of it. It certainly doesn't "baraish" to be though:

https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=139385
https://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/images/manga/3/190455l.jpg
https://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/images/manga/1/192611l.jpg

The main kid is a little on the chunky "cub" side but I think he's neutral as far as that goes, and the other boy is downright pretty.

I feel you about bara. I like some bara-lite authors (Naop and Mentaiko represent) but generally I'm not into hardcore bara either. It doesn't need to be bara in order to not have an explicit "female gaze" thing about it. Hell, look at romance novels, those guys are all ripped as fuck (it's a guilty pleasure to read trashy romance novels for me, whether heterosexual or homosexual), but there's still an immediately ascertainable "female audience" feeling, you know what I mean? The "look" of the characters is only a part of the issue here for me.

I would like more "normal" looking guys in gay representation though, a happy medium between "they're all roided up baras" and "they're all whispy willow bishounen and saucer-eyed ukes".

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, it's all bisexual cis girls and real gay men hate it.

http://tedystaleva.tumblr.com/post/156901516957/yuri-on-ice-reaction-from-olympic-skater-johnny

Oh, but they probably just paid him to praise it, right? Crunchyroll, an online anime site that runs on membership fees, paid a champion skater to promote a show that was already their most popular feature, right? And the livetweets on his twitter about it were all part of the promotion too right? He's barely containing the fact that he really hates it, right?

Re: Lol this wank ALWAYS comes up!

[(Anonymous)]

IKR? And it makes so much sense for Crunchyroll to pay such a well known skater after the show became a hit even among skaters. Of course.