fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3945 ]

[ SECRET POST #3945 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3945 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 47 secrets from Secret Submission Post #565.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

OP. I am a lesbian. Please don't lecture me about "the gay agenda" or being queer.

Thanks ever so for your permission to be skeptical. (I say this half sarcastically, but also with genuine appreciation for your generally polite tone.) I am not running around snatching anything out of anyone's hands. However, I frankly do not understand why people with two X chromosomes who are attracted to people with a Y chromosome should be encouraged in the belief that they are "gay men," any more than Rachel Dolezal should have been affirmed in her conviction that she was black. And yes, if you are super into slash and also convinced that you are a gay dude who just happened to be "assigned female at birth," I am going to give you extra digital side-eye, because I can't help but think that your erotica-reading habits were not so much the key to unlocking your "true identity" as the gateway to a fashionable delusion.

I was just being sarcastic. As you are here.

No idea why you think gay dudes connect to chromosomes as I never fancied anyone's genetic code.

I guess I do not get what you are not getting as seen plenty younger folks whose sexuality developed first and imagine being utterly confused with that while not even close to cracking their own gender. To some it comes at same time or to some gender identity clears when they are kids.

Sorry that I assumed you are a dude as I assumed OP was and you could have been as well. Point is - most of us of any gender and sexuality figure ourselves based upon information we consume so we look for anything that fits or is entertaining. You can be affected by random slash fic if it unlocks some knowledge about yourself.

Anon, I absolutely do not know you but random trans dudes who read gay stories are not your enemy and if you feel confused by how and whys of why a dude says he identifies as gay - ask him. You are under no obligation to change your stance but nor is anyone else. I guess the question is why it bothers you and how do those blokes and their gayness affects you.

If you get into delusional phase - they are pretty different and auto-destructive in another manner. A gay dude who descends into a delusion that he is cured of gayness and straight is now can certainly believe it but still will have underlying knowledge it is wrong. It does go the same way for gender - seen people thinking they always been cis and erasing all trans history (I do not meant stealth ones).

However, you are right on one thing - doubts do grow delusions so if such dudes bother you then ... just ignore them. Sure, they can detransition or decide they are in-between but it is their own path and struggles.

I do hate the infinite 'coming out' phase currently being on the most popular as it is not fun - constantly analysing yourself and comparing to others as people question your choices from every corner. That is why your rethoric is quite stalling as going over all of this every other Wednesday is meh.

I am not educating anyone on anything queer and true me assuming you area dude was rude and patronising in that context. I guess my queer is different than yours. Dudes in OP's secret also have their own form so eh, maybe they really like DNA code.

Just to clarify, I am secret!OP and a lesbian. Dunno why you assumed I was a gay dude (although I do know multiple gay dudes—of the XY variety—who feel the same way that I do about all of this). No idea why you think gay dudes connect to chromosomes as I never fancied anyone's genetic code. And I have never fancied anybody's gender identity. For most people, sexual attraction is predicated on biological sex. I would never want to be with a woman who didn't have a natural vagina. My gay male friends have told be that they would not want to be with a man who didn't have a natural penis. (This isn't arbitrary pickiness: current medical technology can disguise biological sex, but far from perfectly, especially when it comes to the genitals.) I feel like we've slipped into some bizarro parallel universe where it's perfectly okay to be gay . . . as long as you don't insist on being the kind of gay person who is exclusively attracted to people who are actually of the same sex, in which case you are a petty, small-minded bigot. People who are genuinely attracted on the basis of "hearts not parts" are free to do their own thing. I just take issue when they try to assert that their mode of attraction is the better, nobler way of being gay (or bi, or straight, or anything else). I guess I do not get what you are not getting as seen plenty younger folks whose sexuality developed first and imagine being utterly confused with that while not even close to cracking their own gender. To some it comes at same time or to some gender identity clears when they are kids. I dispute the notion that "gender identity" is an indwelling fixture of selfhood that must be discovered (rather than simply invented). I, at least, have never discovered my gender identity; biologically speaking, I am a woman, but I have no idea what it means to feel like a woman. As far as I am concerned, you are the sex that you are born into, and that's that. Your biological sex affects your dating prospects (some people simply will not be attracted to you), but it should not determine your personality, your career, your hobbies, or anything else. In a perfect world, your sex would simply be a neutral bit of trivia about your body, like your height or your skin color. Of course, we do not live in a perfect world, and both sex and skin color continue to shape life outcomes in fundamentally unjust ways. All that being said, you do you. If you're happy and healthy, then that's all that matters. And if identifying as a gay man is what it takes to make that happen, then, well, all right. (I will say that I have several FtM friends, and with one exception, none of them seem much happier on the other side of the transition; seeing their struggles is one of the things that has made me so skeptical of transgender ideology.) I still think you're a little bit ridiculous, in a Rachel Dolezal-ish sort of way, but you've stated elsewhere in this thread that you think you're better than I am, so I'd say we're about even.

Sheeeit, what happened to my paragraph breaks? Unintentional wall of text is unintentional.

For the sake of legibility, let me try that again:

Just to clarify, I am secret!OP and a lesbian. Dunno why you assumed I was a gay dude (although I do know multiple gay dudes—of the XY variety—who feel the same way that I do about all of this).

>>No idea why you think gay dudes connect to chromosomes as I never fancied anyone's genetic code.<<

And I have never fancied anybody's gender identity. For most people, sexual attraction is predicated on biological sex. I would never want to be with a woman who didn't have a natural vagina. My gay male friends have told be that they would not want to be with a man who didn't have a natural penis. (This isn't arbitrary pickiness: current medical technology can disguise biological sex, but far from perfectly, especially when it comes to the genitals.) I feel like we've slipped into some bizarro parallel universe where it's perfectly okay to be gay . . . as long as you don't insist on being the kind of gay person who is exclusively attracted to people who are actually of the same sex, in which case you are a petty, small-minded bigot.

People who are genuinely attracted on the basis of "hearts not parts" are free to do their own thing. I just take issue when they try to assert that their mode of attraction is the better, nobler way of being gay (or bi, or straight, or anything else).

>>I guess I do not get what you are not getting as seen plenty younger folks whose sexuality developed first and imagine being utterly confused with that while not even close to cracking their own gender. To some it comes at same time or to some gender identity clears when they are kids.<<

I dispute the notion that "gender identity" is an indwelling fixture of selfhood that must be discovered (rather than simply invented). I, at least, have never discovered my gender identity; biologically speaking, I am a woman, but I have no idea what it means to feel like a woman.

As far as I am concerned, you are the sex that you are born into, and that's that. Your biological sex affects your dating prospects (some people simply will not be attracted to you), but it should not determine your personality, your career, your hobbies, or anything else. In a perfect world, your sex would simply be a neutral bit of trivia about your body, like your height or your skin color. Of course, we do not live in a perfect world, and both sex and skin color continue to shape life outcomes in fundamentally unjust ways.

All that being said, you do you. If you're happy and healthy, then that's all that matters. And if identifying as a gay man is what it takes to make that happen, then, well, all right. (I will say that I have several FtM friends, and with one exception, none of them seem much happier on the other side of the transition; seeing their struggles is one of the things that has made me so skeptical of transgender ideology.) I still think you're a little bit ridiculous, in a Rachel Dolezal-ish sort of way, but you've stated elsewhere in this thread that you think you're better than I am, so I'd say we're about even.

well, you are a bigot, though

But I don't identify as a bigot.

Seriously, though. I absolutely believe that trans people should have the same legally protected rights to housing, employment, and healthcare as anyone else. I do not think they should be bullied or harassed. But I do not agree with the fundamental claims about sex and gender that have been advanced by the trans community. I think "woman" and "man" are fixed biological realities that ought to be totally divorced from prescribed social roles, and that gender is, at best, a totally subjective personal experience that shouldn't have much bearing on anything. (At worst—and far more often—gender is the set of cultural practices through which sexism is enacted.) If this makes me a bigot, then I guess "bigot"—like "man" and "woman"—is now one of those words that can mean anything anybody wants it to.

I feel like I wrote this in my sleep or something. This is pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter.

I agree with all you're saying and I am also a lesbian, so I can understand what you mean completely. A lot of people dont like lesbians nowadays if they aren't "bi", in the sense that if you don't accept trans women/mtt thru your 'cotton ceiling' (lol) then you are a bad lesbian and evil bigot terf scum and somehow 16 year olds on the internet feel justified in sending you death threats until you say you were wrong and say you will sleep with trans women "who have at least transitioned". And the trans women will send you dickpics because apparently thats normal. Seriously what the fuck.

Nowadays i feel like i can understand why did it. They're all straight guys obviously, who've watched too much porn, and simultaneously seem to be suffering from a trauma themselves because why else would they want to change themselves so much. (The 'gay trans men'/dysphoric straight girls are similar but instead of lesbian its yaoi/slash). From my experiences from talking with these dysphoric men, these men had very negative female role models in their lives, and were belittled and taught they weren't allowed to be men if they were emotional, and they especially weren't allowed to dress in feminine clothing or be feminine, they also saw 'internet feminists' (who don't seem to care about women's issues rather than just harassing men because they were disrespected by men and so it turns into a vicious circle) saying things constantly like 'cishet men are the fucking worst' and so those men think 'if I was a lesbian they would like me!' The worst thing is that it actually worked. Rather than just being encouraged to stick up for themselves as men, effeminate or not, they were encouraged to be precious trans lesbians and their dysphoria was encouraged? Tf.

(Also for the record to people reading I'm vaguely aware of the whole civil war type thing going down between bis/lesbians and don't hate bi girls, I've only ever dated them and this was before this tumblr shit flew off the rails and I've had loving long term relationships with all and don't believe dumb stereotypes. I respect them as people first. Sexuality is not something someone can control.)

Anyway I was a 'trans man' for about 3 years, and associated with the trans crowd a lot. When I'd just turned 16 i raped which contributed to my dysphoria, and when i confided in my dad he told me i was stupid, which contributed to it more, then i went to a new college (uk college so i was 16/17 when I entred) and i was harassed for being a lesbian which made it all worse. I dropped out after 6 months and spent most of my time on twitter and tumblr. Pretty much dedicating my life to people who seemed to actually like me because it was the only thing that made me happy. All the trans friends I made were really funny and we made each other laugh like hell, but had been abused also, and nearly all other trans people I spoke to had suffered abuse whether it was sexual or mental abuse, although I'm not sure if any realised it was what contributed to their own dysphoria. I know i didn't feel it myself at the time. I thought I was just exploring gender and realising something new about myself and it Just 'felt right'.

All of us/them just wanted to be accepted for who they were but they felt they had to change everything about themselves in order to be respected and treated like a human being. What really needed to happen was being taught to have confidence in oneself and being able to stick up for oneself, as well as recognising what abuse is and what is 'normal'/nurturing so a repeat of abuse doesn't happen. When someone has lived in an abusive situation for too long it becomes normal and they don't always recognise it when they experience it again. I feel like, because of this, everyone who is dysphoric, is suffering from, or has suffered from, a traumatic experience to them, even if they don't believe they have.

Regarding my situation it turned out my dad was a narcissist and this became apparent within the last year when he forced me to cry and apologise because appaently i upset his girlfriend (of 10 years) when i apparently told her the truth about one of the biggest lies he had told her, so I have cut him off. I also cut off his mum too who told me 'oh, (myname), if everyone told the truth the world wouldnt go round!'. I feel like that made me realise the situation I was in wasnt normal.. growing up he would frequently lie and break my toys and say it was me. I don't know why I didn't realise it sooner, probably because it was normal. Anyway I also cut off my old friends who were quite abusive. My best friend who is bi, and so was sort of involved with the crowd of 'queer' friends i was in, helped me through a lot mentally and was supportive, Because she had seen the way we treated each other, and it wasn't really healthy.

It's been quite some time now and I'm not dysphoric any more, and I am stronger now, physically and mentally. I'm also in training, I'm going to be a hollistic therapist (yay). I feel like this was an extreme example but it does get better if anyone has or is going thru something similar. Learning psychology does help, as it enables you to become more confident and you don't feel guilty about cutting off bad friends and stick up for yourself because you understand your own mind, and also recognise patterns in others too.

I'm really glad you're doing better. Take care of yourself and be happy, anon. ❤

Thank you! It's been a trek and a half but it feels so much better now I've made the cutting-off changes in my life :) I mean i don't have as many resources as I used to, but it's actually something I can handle now I'm not feeling depressed and anxious all the time!

Take care of yourself as well! Have a lovely week ♡ :D

I misgendered you as the 'making us look bad' part read to me as you are another gay dude and responded as I am one. I often think too highly of myself as I am not the best person but I hate when people define experiences for others which are pretty relative, personal and contextual. You and your friends are perfectly fine interpretting your own preferences and identities this way for yourselves but you cannot assume others will have it the same way. Your view is simply not the one I hold and yeah my gay is irrelevant to dicks (to some it is not which is grand) - I used to have a crush on Andrieja Pejic as she looked like my type but when she came out - crush vanished. Again, that is me.

I do not think any part of a person and how they came to be is irrelevant or ignorable so you cannot be gender or colour blind while declaring you love someone's fantastic personality (as personality forms with all factors considered). Your stance is quite similar to this one in a different manner as you generilise everyone in same way.

Being queer in any way is far from being accepted or trendy like someone else said but most people I know are older and quite happily settled down (I mean stable relationship wise and far beyond doubting identity or initial struggles. Settled down also applies to those of my friends who are not in relationships but know what they want out of them while not believing all will always fail as they are queer in wrong way).

I really don't care if I sound ridiculous and you probably don't either so I guess we are far too different and come from different places to ever agree.

OP. I think I've said pretty much everything I have to say, so I'll sign off here. I read some of your other posts in this thread, which inspired me to check out your Tumblr, which led me to conclude that your experience of life seems to be pretty thoroughly uncoupled from empirically observable reality. If it works for you, good. But please don't expect the rest of us to co-sign your confabulations.

Sure as your social circles and experiences plus totally different and strict outlook pretty much closes conversation as am pretty much same as you and neither will change although I would not say confabulations as it is just vastly different situation. I only oppose to you saying all people might react same as you whilst a lot others and me said otherwise. My tumblr is just crap though as you seen plus shared but then again I am sure I do sound same as you read me pretty clearly anyways. I guess thanks for weird argument even if I failed to rain hell fire on you as suspected you just randomly said things but then you elaborated about of why you think what you think.

The notion that people are "encouraged" to be trans given the extremely high levels of gatekeeping, violence, and discrimination that trans people face is extremely overrated. The argument that women are going through that gauntlet just to become second-class mlm within the gay community just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

It's "encouraged" only to the extent that we're now openly talking about institutional anti-trans discrimination and gatekeeping. And maybe within fandom spaces which are a go-nowhere/do-nothing political practice it might get you "friends." But having a dozen more people follow your tumblr won't get you a job, won't get you health care, and won't protect you from a beatdown if you don't pass.

EDIT: And to be blunt, "fag hags" looking for a contact gay-community buzz can always pull homoflexible or gay-identified bi men without facing anti-trans discrimination.

Edited 2017-10-23 14:38 (UTC)

OP. But women are "going through the gauntlet just to become second-class mlm within the gay community." My question—well, one of my questions—is "why"? I know the "right" answer is that they were never women and always men—but this feels a lot like asking why we're at war with Eastasia and being told "we were always at war with Eastasia."

One of my FtM friends (formerly identified as a lesbian, now a straight man) once told me "being a woman just wasn't working out for me." This struck me as incredibly sad, although of course I didn't say so to his face. I acknowledge that trans people face discrimination, and I absolutely support legal protections for them. But I don't believe that we are building a better, juster world when we shut down all questions about why people choose to transition.

> But women are "going through the gauntlet just to become second-class mlm within the gay community."

No they're not. (Emphasis added to make it clear exactly where the statement is wrong.) There's at least a half-dozen different, culturally acceptable ways for straight cis women to get laid by "gay" men. The idea that one would go through an extensive process of transformation and end up facing transphobia just to fuck a small minority of the gay community is ridiculous.

> My question—well, one of my questions—is "why"?

Because being forced to pass on a day to day basis, even with the full "men/women can do that too" subcultures which makes certain constrained forms of androgyny acceptable, still causes significant psychological trauma and distress. Many trans people have significant body dysphoria as well.

EDIT: Other than relief from that flavor of distress (arguably at the expense of other forms of distress), I can't think of anything that trans people get that cis people can't get easier without the risks, expense, and trouble of being trans.

> But I don't believe that we are building a better, juster world when we shut down all questions about why people choose to transition.

Only the most ridiculous ones, such as the argument that people are transitioning to fuck gay men, get shot down. The whole process of transition involves repeatedly asking "why" and "why not" over and over again, at each and every step and change.

Edited 2017-10-23 16:16 (UTC)

There's a difference between fucking a gay(-ish) man and being a gay man. To be clear, I think most FtMs do not transition in pursuit of a fetish, although I do feel like FtMs who are also hardcore slash fans may have internalized the notion that all good narratives have a gay man at their center, and women are merely supporting characters.

>>Because being forced to pass on a day to day basis, even with the full "men/women can do that too" subcultures which makes certain constrained forms of androgyny acceptable, still causes significant psychological trauma and distress.<<

Twenty years ago, there were very, very few women who felt distressed that they had to "pass" as women. Certainly, there were women who felt constrained by the gender roles imposed upon them, but virtually none of them felt like they were men. Transgenderism, especially of the FtM variety, is very much a product of our particular historical moment. Again, I want to know why.

Twenty years ago, there were very, very few women who felt distressed that they had to "pass" as women.

How are we determining this? What metric are you using?

Time travelling one. Gender roles started to be reinforced in Europe and their stolen lands sometime during industrialisation. Before that - it was a thing rich people did thus why some might assume it happened to all as others often simply did not write about their experience. However, some did but the records are usually rather local as not transcribed online. Gender identity as a personal concept existed since forever just not with same semantics and connotations as they evolved (also, again, very culturally specific).

OP is right that sexism certainly got worse in recent years - possibly because we now see people actively fighting it due to bigger media circulation. However, while extremism increased overall - I would say that conditions for women are better individually. My mother and grandma never conformed to gender roles and got a lot of shit for it but while they still might have today - they would also get a lot of support as those who wish to educate themselves do so.

We ironically come from an area where a lot of trans men were prevalent in history and the thing that changed was literally the ability to transition. No one policed anyone pre-18th century but afterwards yeah - a lot of trans dudes ended in asylums (it was like a posh retirement home for rich elderly in those cases) as their families did not like reputation being ruined. Sure, none said they were trans just said they were dudes as semantics evolve.

The sexism and trans thing do intersect but in a very different way. If you are a trans woman - you are considered as willingly going to a lower social class. It hits patriarchy in the face and anything supposed 'biological men' do is taken seriously. Then anything a trans woman choses to do or how she is becomes judged just like any other woman (not that any trans woman ever was not judged before coming out or does not have it way more dangerous than cis women).

Meanwhile the case with dudes is similar - trans dudes are not as scrutinised as they move up in hierarchy but since society is sexist, they are still viewed through the lens of 'biological woman' past and not taken as seriously. This might be why it appears there is more of them as they usually vanish while trans women often are not able to.

There is certainly also the part where trans dudes benefit from sexism and duplicate it all the same. One of hugest misoginysts I known was a trans bloke, pretty homophobic as well (but kept creepily hitting on me despite hating all gay people and me shutting him out) plus just all general arse. He generally got praise from others for being outspoken (usually for sexist stuff or racist things) as his crowd loved such things.

My area certainly is not the whole universe so somewhere else it could have looked different but people are pretty much always the same, just change the architecture, language, technology and make more wars over crap.

"Before God, I have never harmed or done wrong to a living being. Born with a handicap of a strange personality, which makes me wish to appear as a man, I have done my very best with the life God has given me. All I ask is to have the right to earn an honorable livelihood, and to live in peace without hurt to any one." -- Eugene de Forest, Quoted in the Seattle Star, September 10, 1915

We know that there were trans men 20 years ago. We know that there were trans men 100 years ago. They're more visible today largely because of a wave of writing by them starting in the late 1980s. Fausto-Sterling points out that trans lives have become more politicized and polarized over the last 60 years due to the development of centralized legal identity and medical interventionism favoring idealized gender-binary bodies.

EDIT: One reason they're more visible is that trans men have options for living that don't involve identity fraud, which is what got Mr. de Forest arrested 100 years ago.

EDIT2: And people were asking all the same questions about the existence of trans men 25 years ago as well.

Edited 2017-10-23 18:03 (UTC)

I'm not claiming that there were no FtM people prior to the twenty-first century. (I will say, however, that SJ sorts have a troubling habit of retroactively claiming transness for historical women who dressed as men for practical reasons or were in some other way gender non-conforming.)

There's zero question that the number of trans-identified people has skyrocketed in recent years. I suspect you know this just as well as I do, but here are some sources to support this claim:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35532491

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25612159

The last link is of particular interest (although the main article is unfortunately paywalled); it shows that between 2006 and 2013, "natal girls were markedly overrepresented among applicants" to gender-identity clinics in Toronto and Amsterdam. More anecdotally, my seventeen year old cousin (a geeky, nerdy, socially awkward sort) has three transboys in her social circle, along with a bunch of girls who identify as genderfluid or nonbinary or agender or whatnot. My cousin has recently taken to describing herself as "non-binary" as well.

To repeat what I said elsewhere on this thread, I do not believe that this is just a closet door opening. Yes, destigmatization and increased visibility are part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture, and I don't think the whole picture is all rainbows and sparkles.

I do not believe that this is just a closet door opening. Yes, destigmatization and increased visibility are part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture, and I don't think the whole picture is all rainbows and sparkles.

Like... why? It doesn't really seem prima facie impossible or unlikely that the increase in trans-identified people is primarily because of destigmatization and visibility. If anything, we should expect destigmatization and visibility to increase the number of openly trans-identified people. I don't understand why you believe this is not just a closet door opening.

> I'm not claiming that there were no FtM people prior to the twenty-first century. (I will say, however, that SJ sorts have a troubling habit of retroactively claiming transness for historical women who dressed as men for practical reasons or were in some other way gender non-conforming.)

This is true of gay, lesbian, and bisexual identity as well. At some point, we just have to shrug our shoulders and admit that people like de Forest (outed after 20 years) and the postmortem discoveries of passing men and women described by Fausto Sterling are probably what they appear to be.

But, your interpretation of those sources is suspect:

> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html

Different estimates from different datasets. The estimated trans population for the United States was 0.6%.

"Its new number was drawn from a much larger federal database than it used to reach the earlier projection of 0.3 percent, or 700,000 people."

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/

Large variance in estimates due to a lack of a standard set of questions.

"The large variety in questions used to ask about transgender identity may account for residual heterogeneity in our models."

> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35532491

Large number of referrals, by parents due to increased awareness. Self-identification not really addressed.

"In terms of the general increase in referrals, GIDS said there could be a number of reasons, but increased awareness and acceptance of gender issues - particularly via the media and social networks - was a likely factor."

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25612159

Can't fully evaluate due to lack of full text. Abstract does not define what a "significant" change means. Also, a convenience sample of two clinics with limited generalizability.

From those studies, we cannot determine how many more people are identifying as trans vs. how much is due to changes in methodology.

> Yes, destigmatization and increased visibility are part of the picture, but they're not the whole picture, and I don't think the whole picture is all rainbows and sparkles.

You're putting a heck of a lot of responsibility for American culture's ideas about gender on the shoulders of 0.6% of the population.

I mean, I've published quantitative research into differences in language use between boys and girls. I found significant differences that were practically meaningless, with a difference in means of less than one character in word length. So when an abstract claims significant difference but buries the effect size behind a paywall, my bullshit detector starts going off.

[ SECRET POST #3945 ]

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