[ SECRET POST #584 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #584 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Layout entries'll be posted later tonight!

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 371 secrets from Secret Submission Post #084.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - empty comment ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

N!S#1

[(Anonymous)]

But the context that those words are used in, 4chan (as exampled by the picture used) renders the usual connotations meaningless, unless you're a newfag. On 4chan, the connotations are different, and they really are just words. What's the harm of letting that spread to the rest of the net, instead of standing on your soapbox in front of it, preaching a morality that no longer applies (and is therefore laughed at/ignored)? Surely it's better to let it spread, and let it render the previous harmful connotations obsolete?

Oops

[(Anonymous)]

meant N!S#2 in the subject there, sorry.

Re: N!S#1

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

You honestly believe that 4chan can singlehandedly render those connotations obsolete? I think that's absolutely absurd. Your whole argument basically hinges on having faith in 4chan's deliberate backwardsness, and even then you're limiting your argument to oldfags.

This basically boils down to "what is 4chan's true nature?" though, and I don't expect that we'll get anywhere arguing back and forth on that point.

Re: N!S#1

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Also, I'd just like to add that those words are still being used as insults. I don't believe they're being separated from their meaning at all, as much as those who are in the habit of using them would like to believe they are.

Re: N!S#1

[(Anonymous)]

Considering I've been on 4chan for several years now, I am one of the people 'who are in the habit of using them'. They're used as insults, yes, but you were the one referring to connotations, and the connotations on 4chan are not the same as the harmful ones you're referring to. And yes, I do believe that 4chan has more of an effect on the internet than most people know, even those who are aware of it. I'm not saying it could do it overnight, but I believe it's a step in the right direction.

Re: N!S#1

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

They're used as insults, yes, but you were the one referring to connotations, and the connotations on 4chan are not the same as the harmful ones you're referring to.

Lots of people believe this about 4chan. I don't. I'm not interested in stopping people from using them on 4chan, just as I'm not interested in stopping the sun from rising. I just don't think their use is nearly as innocent as alot of the 4chan vets want to think, and I think it's worth noting that the connocations are definitely negative.

4chan has an affect on the internet, that's for certain. But removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult? That's just not going to happen, sorry.

Re: N!S#1

[(Anonymous)]

The evolution of language cannot be predicted like that. Removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult has already happened multiple times through history, and we're currently in an age where the evolution of words has sped up so much that people are actually noticing it as it happens. And that's largely because of the internet. I believe 4chan has enough of an effect on internet behaviour to start things that slowly but surely become norms, and I believe language itself can evolve in multiple fascinating ways, and I believe these two things together could eventually result in these words becoming as harmless as the 'neutral insults' that have preceded them in exactly the same process. Maybe I'm naive in this belief, but at the same time, I really don't think you can say there is no possible way it could ever feasibly happen.

Re: N!S#1

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

It could happen, but it won't right now and I don't believe that 4chan is helping things at all. I imagine we're not going to see eye to eye on that, though.

Re: N!S#1

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think there's much point arguing over 4chan's place in the grand scheme of things. It's pretty much an omnipresent now, and as I've previously noted, a lot of the memes have spread from there to here (and many other places) already.

Whichever way we're going, and no matter what speed we're going at, we're already very much on the way.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

Removing the prejudice from a word and converting it to a neutral insult has already happened multiple times through history

Out of curiosity, which words are you thinking of?

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

Bastard, bitch, bugger, as three examples. All still insults, yes, but they have lost the strength of their original connotations (in open society - the original and most demeaning connotations of 'bitch' are still used in prison and gang slang.)

In the reverse, fag and faggot used to be completely harmless, and fag is still used to refer to cigarettes in the UK. Recently there is also 'nonce', which used to be relatively harmless, meaning idiot, but now carries connotations of pedophiles/sexual offenders from prison usage (actually completely unrelated, the prison usage coming from the acronym Not On Normal Communal Exercise or Not on Normal Courtyard Exercise.) I was pulled up on this the other day, called someone a nonce and was told I was 'being way too harsh.'

Re: N!S#2

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Bastard and bugger, maybe. Bitch, not so much.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

On 4chan, if someone calls you a racial or sexual orientation-based term, you can assume that it's meant as a meme. The person calling you a faggot or a nigger is still a fucktard, but it's a meme. On the rest of the fucking internet, however, that assumption doesn't apply. Sure, it'd be nice if words were just words, but they aren't, and pretending that they are don't not only makes you a douche, but enforces the idea that these words - and the ideas behind them, namely, that non-white, non-heterosexual people are somehow lesser - can continue to be used without giving offense.

http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't mean currently. But the reason why this argument is being brought up on a LJ community and not the source itself is because those memes have spread to fandom already. So my point is, why not let them spread - the connotations are the same as on 4chan to the people using them.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

No. No they aren't. Not in the slightest.

For people not on the chans, the perception (valid or no) of the chans is a bunch of foul-mouthed kids who make cat macros and go out of their way to be as coarse and rude as possible. 4chan use of this kind of profanity is contributing to the overall use of this kind of profanity on the whole internet, but where I've seen it, it is not being used as a meme. Rather, it's being used with the original connotations, the idea being that, hey, it's now okay to call this guy a stupid nigger! It's fine to call this guy a gay fucking gay faggot gaywad!

The only way for terms like these to lose their bite is for the people they reflect on to use them regularly. Anyone else using them is, and will continue to be, insulting and demeaning. Even if you, the person using these words, isn't intending to be throwing years of racial inequality in a Black man's face when you call him a nigger, that's still exactly what you're doing.

Re: N!S#2

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

I'm with you 100%.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

But then we have the problem that on the internet, the majority of the populace is anonymous - even those who are not actually anonymous could easily not be who they are making themselves out to be. So how can we judge on who is using a word or not, and whether they have the right to? For all you know, I could be a gay black man - does that give me more right to use the words fag or nigger, just because I'm telling you that's who I am? Can anyone really dictate on language like that?

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

That anonymity is part of the problem. In order for a Black man to use the word "nigger", he has to be a Black man. In order for a queer person to call someone else a "faggot", they have to be gay. When you hide behind internet anonymity, you are voluntarily negating any and all minority groups like that that you belong to. Because no, I don't know whether or not you're a gay Black man, and you don't know if I am. So if you call me a nigger or a fag, I don't see those terms as coming from another Black man, or from another gay person. I just see the words, and without the cultural connection of having those words come from someone else in my minority group, the words are offensive. And yes, offensive and taboo. If you aren't a Black man, you have no fucking right to call me a nigger. If you aren't a gay man, you have no fucking right to call me a faggot. Even if you are Black or gay, if we haven't established that those words are acceptable between the two of us, they're still offensive. I would never go up to a random Black man on the street and greet him with "hi, nigger!" because I don't know him. We haven't agreed, the two of us, that we're going to reclaim that word, and without that agreement, the term continues to be offensive.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

I'd say it's part of the solution, not the problem. In my opinion, because we're both anonymous, you have no right to dictate on me whether I should school my language use to your preferences or not. You find these words offensive - how am I supposed to know that before the fact? And how does it really effect me, in the long run? I'm supposed to stop, and work out all the possible ways I could offend you, and change my language use accordingly, all for one passing anonymous conversation on the internet? If that's the case then you should also do the same for me, and change your language use according to my preferences. It doesn't and can't work one way like that.

And no, I would never go up to a stranger on the street and say a word that I knew could be taken as offensive to them. That's common sense. And it's also amazingly out of context for this debate - I am talking about language use on the internet, not in real life. They effect each other, yes, but they are two different things. This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

Re: N!S#2

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

You find these words offensive - how am I supposed to know that before the fact?

Because everyone knows those words are offensive and everyone knows not to use them with strangers.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

No, I don't know this. Because I'm on the internet. How do I know whether you're one of the people 'from 4chan' who are okay with the usage? I don't. It's not the same anymore. If it was, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

They aren't my preferences, though. I'm not sitting here telling you to never ever ever use the word "moist" because I find it disgusting. I'm telling you that use of the word "nigger" is offensive to a lot of people for a lot of reasons. And you know that it's an offensive word, because you've been defending your right to use it, which you wouldn't do if the word didn't have the connotations it does.
I'm not telling you that you can't use these words, either. I'm telling you that by using these words, you're contributing to the bullshit that POCs and homosexuals have to deal with - regardless of whether you belong to those groups or not. The only place my opinion enters into it is that I think you're a gigantic douche for calling people fags and thinking it doesn't mean much.


I am talking about language use on the internet, not in real life. They effect each other, yes, but they are two different things. This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

I'm sorry, but are you fucking kidding me? You mean, because you aren't in danger of being punched in the face for calling a Black man a nigger, that it's okay? That because you calling someone a faggot isn't tied to your real life name and face, it doesn't matter? Is that actually the argument you're making here?

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, I've had similar discussions to this multiple times. I'm not defending my right to use these words - I believe I have that right already. I'm arguing against your belief that my connotations do not count simply because they're held (at this time) by the minority. It's a discussion, not a court case. At the end of the day, your opinion doesn't effect mine in the slightest - I got into it because I find the discussion of language on the internet interesting, not because I felt attacked.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all. I'm saying the consequences are nowhere near as great. In fact, in this situation, there are none at all for me. And yes, that effects my behaviour. I see no point in denying that - it's the basis for 'anonymous' becoming the beast that it has.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep capitalising black?

Re: N!S#2

[omorka.livejournal.com]

This conversation is transient, and has no consequences for either of us. The same could not be said for real life.

This is just not true. A conversation is a conversation is a conversation; whether it happens over the phone, on the Internet, over the dinner table, on on the street is a matter of form, and to a limited extent context, but not of content. Whether words hurt or not is a matter of content, and perhaps to a limited extent context, but not of form.

People are still people whether they're on the Internet or not.

Re: N!S#2

[(Anonymous)]

I'm anonymous. I can easily close this window right now and all I'll carry away from this conversation is the emails in my inbox, which I can delete. The only thing I could call more transient than that was if I hadn't tagged the thread for email tracking.