fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4625 ]

[ SECRET POST #4625 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4625 ⌋

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[Star Trek: Enterprise]

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[Horatio Hornblower]

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Disclaimer: Obviously everyone has the right to identify and express themselves however they want.

However...I don't really "get" the whole non-binary gender thing. I know three people who identify this way. One of them is what I would've considered a butch lesbian (dresses sort of masculine), so I sort of get it in that case, but what's the difference between being non-binary and being butch?

One of the others is a girl who's super feminine, all about fashion/makeup, yet insists on being called "they" and claims to be non-binary, which confuses me. Like...how is being super ultra girly NOT part of the binary?

The other is a guy who wears eyeliner and nail polish, which guys typically don't, obviously. But he's into the whole goth/punk thing, and I feel like that's just part of that culture and not necesssarily "feminine". I grew up with a ton of other guys who have the exact same style but none of them consider themselves anything other than guys who are into the goth/punk scene.

So I'm kind of confused. I thought it was someone who wasn't particularly masculine or feminine, but somewhere in between, but two of the three people i know who identify that way don't really fit that definition.

I feel like I can't say this to anyone without getting yelled at for transphobic, and I'm genuinely not. Like I said, I fully support everyone's right to identify however they want, but...I don't really get it.

A+ agree with you on all of these. I've known people who fit into all the examples and it just baffles me.

Or the one where 'she likes to wear overalls and play with trucks OBVIOUSLY she's trans!' where I'm just like 'oooor she's just a girl who likes those things; we called them tomboys when I was a kid and it was cool?'

ayrt

Yeah. I feel like people who were more interested in the "stereotypical" opposite gender things have always existed but it's never really been a big deal before recently (well, there are always assholes who call boys into "girly" things gay and make fun of them for it which they obviously shouldn't do). I mean, obviously it's a social thing (otherwise where are people getting the ideas of what boys or girls "should" do or like?) and I don't get why people buy into it. I feel like transgender people (who feel like they're in the wrong body) are a different situation, but the thinking of "oh, well, I don't like "typical" boy/girl things so I guess I can't be a boy/girl" is just total BS to me.

+1
I was thinking about this last night, and how I never had the courage to actually ask. Like I get that people can be unhappy with their gender, and I don't judge people for it but I could never wrap my head around how identifying as one or another (or neither even) actually works.
I wanted to but a suit for my cousins wedding, but that doesn't make me a lesbian or trans, and it boggles my mind that someone actually asked me if I was just because I mentioned wanting to.

I get kind of annoyed by cis women using tomboys and suits as some sort of gotcha regarding trans people. If you want to be a woman in a suit or jeans, there's about a century of history there including Dietrich and Hepburn you can evoke, and a fashion industry to sell you pantsuits, jeans, and even tuxes designed for women off the rack. And yes, those options will suck as much as the dresses that the fashion industry, sells but dressing like my grandma did in World War Two might get you labeled eccentric, but still have plausible straightness. There is a line beyond which butches get clocked, but there's a lot more wiggle room.

If I wear a dress to a family wedding, well, first I'd probably have to make one because I don't have a body type that can do off-the-rack. But there would be absolutely no question that I'd be seen by some people as either a queen or tranny or both, and likely that would get me cut out of things like Thanksgiving and Christmas where the family finances get talked out, and probably never see my younger nieces or nephews again.

I choose my battles there, which means wearing clothing that feels like a clown suit, lying my ass off about my life, nervously changing the subject when LGBTQ politics comes up, and uncomfortably sitting around low-grade homophobia and transphobia. Putting on that performance is stressful and hurts my relationships with them in other ways. That's less and less sustainable the older I get.

I very much believe that gender is not a binary, but most nonbinary people I've been familiar with seem to be in some confused rebellion against how small the boxes of "girly" and "boy things" are, rather than being some kind of both and neither.

ayrt

Yep!

I feel like being transgender and genuinely feeling you're a guy/girl and your body doesn't match and that causes you distress is totally valid and a different thing.

But being like "oh, girls/boys don't like/do X or girls/boys can't do/like X *and* Y so I must be non-binary" almost seems like they're playing into gender stereotypes and the way the traditional/conservative people think things should be. Why not instead be like "no, fuck you, girls/boys can do/like whatever the hell they want and it's not up to you to decide"?

Nayrt
Yeah, I always feel like all those people are actually reinforcing gender stereotypes instead of "destroying" them.

I can't wrap my head around nonbinary but I don't think I really need to. I just accept it and use their preferred pronouns and continue on with my life same as if they were she or he,

I can't relate to the nonbinary people I've met though. Their lives revolve around being nonbinary and social justice issues related that. Mine doesn't. Any common ground is superficial at best so I really doubt we'll have any kind of meaningful exchange or become friends.

ayrt

Oh, definitely. I'll use whatever pronouns someone wants me to because I feel like it's rude not to. But my one friend, I can't help but to mentally think of as she/her because she's just so stereotypically girly that thinking of her as something other than a girl is kind of silly to me. Of course, I would never say that, and I feel like asking "hey, why do you consider yourself non-binary when you're so typically 'feminine'?" wouldn't be polite. I do sometimes feel like it's an attention grabbing thing in that case, but of course you don't say that out loud (and I actually feel kind of guilty even thinking it to be completely honest, but in a way that kind of seems like the only logical explanation).

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I don't 100% check off all the boxes of how a girl/woman "should" be, but I was born one, am completely comfortable being one (well, periods are annoying, but I wouldn't want to be a man), and honestly don't really think of being female as a big part of my identity.

(That said, I'm not going to rail against "social justice warriors" or any of that BS. I think social justice is important, I think it's important that trans and non-binary people have equal rights and are not discriminated against. I just don't personally understand/relate to it, but realistically, I guess I don't need to. It's just something that's kind of baffled me for awhile now, and I felt like this thread was an appropriate place to talk about it.)

I can admit I don't get the nb thing either. I'm not gonna hound people who are and demand they not identify as that, if it makes them happy then cool, but as a woman who has never particularly liked more 'a-typically femanine' things I don't NOT feel like a woman y'know?

I just don't like dresses or high-heels and would rather wear sneakers or combat boots.

ayrt

Yep! I don't care about fashion at all. The majority of the time I'm just wearing a shirt, jeans and sneakers (and a sweater/jacket when it's cold out) and can only think of twice in the last 11 years that I wore a dress (my grandpa's funeral and a family friend's wedding). I've never felt like it makes me "not a woman" or anything, though.

I don't really get it either, but...I mean, there are plenty of ways I'm not stereotypically feminine, and yet I still feel like a girl. So maybe that's the difference? Maybe NB people just don't feel like anything?

I honestly don't know. I try to keep an open mind about it, for one because I just want to be nice, but also because as an ace person I've had a lot of people tell me my asexuality isn't real, I'm just confused or broken or think I'm too good for everyone or think I'm a special snowflake. So I really hate the idea of doing that to another person about an aspect of their own identity. But I won't say I understand the whole NB thing, because I don't.

ayrt

Same. There are ways I'm not stereotypically feminine, but I still feel like a girl and wouldn't want to be a guy. And that's a good point, maybe they just mentally don't feel like either, even if they like to dress like or do the things that are typically associated with one gender.

I'm ace, too, so I'm with you on that. I definitely make sure to use everyone's preferred pronouns when talking to them (like I said before, I can't help but mentally think of my one friend as she/her, even though I feel bad about it, but I will use they when I'm around them because that's what my friend wants) and absolutely think everyone should be able to identify how they want and shouldn't be discriminated against or anything. I just personally can't relate to it, but I guess I don't really need to. It's just something I've thought about and figured a secret thread was as good a place as any to share it.

AMAB Genderqueer: You seem to be confusing gender expression and behavior with gender identity and psychology. So the ugly reality is that looking at being trans is kind of a rock-bottom, last-resort thing. I don't see how I can live with the stress of passing as a man for the next 20 years. I've been doing it for about 30 years now and I've hit my limit. I have a trans therapist and support group now, and being on that path has been much more helpful than the previous two decades of pro-feminist psych for men.

So ... historically speaking trans people often have had history within queer GNC counter-cultures. A fair number of transmasculine people, binary or nonbinary, get their start within butch culture. Les Feinberg is one of the go-to sources for talking about that. Similarly, lots of trans people get training wheels within friendly counter-cultures like punk or goth. That's ok too. And maybe they're "trenders" or maybe they're newly hatched "eggs." You can't figure that out by keeping a scorecard of what they do in your sight and how they do it.

Thanks. Someone else here pointed out how it's about what you feel like mentally vs. what you wear, and that made sense to me, since I still am/feel like a girl even though I don't wear the most stereotypically "girly" clothes.

Presentation isn't your gender. It's as simple as that. I don't think someone has to dress a specific way to identify a specific way, which seems to be what you're caught on. "But they dress like X."

So... If I dress in a t-shirt and jeans all the time because those are comfy, am I Sekritly Trans? It's not about being masculine or feminine, but not identifying as a man or woman. Or hell, in some cases, non-binary means they can identify as both off and on! It's really cool.

Yeah, the person upthread make a good point. I wear shirts and jeans the majority of the time (although I do tend to wear more "girly" shirts than just plain t-shirts, but that's beside the point) but I still feel like a girl, so maybe for the non-binary people it's the opposite. They don't mentally feel like either, even if they wear clothes that are more strongly associated with one.

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