fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5321 ]

05. https://i.imgur.com/CTwDdrR.jpg

Ouch--this hits close to home. I've been in your position and, in my opinion, there's little you can do aside from keeping criticism constructive.

It doesn't feel good to see other people fail, especially out of ignorance, but we can't always control their situation or adequately protect them.

Who knows? Maybe--if the statement is delivered gently enough--saying her book needs serious improvement might be a benefit to her, even if it hurts her feelings in the short term.

Good luck to both of you.

You're a good friend and you're helping her by gently steering her towards better books.

Also, googling that author...wow. That sounds dire.

Steering her towards better books is a good idea. You could also talk about the specific strengths and weaknesses of the writing in those books to guide your friend towards being able to identify similar issues in her own writing. It's a small comfort, but if she plans on writing for a similar Christian lit market, maybe she shortcomings in her work won't matter quite so much. Those readers tend to be more issue/theme focused anyway.

But if I were you, I'd try like hell you get out of reading whatever she comes up with.

...Like another commenter said, if this is the market she is trying to get into, maybe it won't matter if it's not that good?

And well, you never know. Maybe despite having questionable taste in other authors (and maybe she hyped the one not-so-good book because it was by a friend?), she's actually a pretty good author herself. I know some of the stuff I've enjoyed is mediocre quality from a technical standpoint, and try to do better.

Also, uh, most authors don't get published on their first manuscript. Whether or not you read it and/or give concrit, it's perhaps something to keep in mind - if this is her first try at a serious publishable novel, she's just starting out, and so if it gets rejected, that's normal and doesn't mean she's terrible. (And if it doesn't get rejected and it gets horrible reviews or something, also relevant - it would be pretty exceptional to be published right away, so she has that to comfort her. Unless she's planning on self-publishing, I guess.)

if you're set on giving criticism (I would not and I would just say the subject's not my thing), then stick to a)spag and b)questions, i.e. "I really liked [things you might have actually liked] but I have a couple of questions. why did X do why? I don't remember when Z came up? you mentioned ABC as a value but R does V; how did you imagine that?"

This. Some people may say they genuinely want hard concrit from a friend but they really don't. Focus on specifics and little things that will improve their writing overall if they implement them, and as anon said above, steer them in the direction of well written books within that genre if you can.

I think most people who say they want concrit don't actually want it. At least, that's been my experience. IME, people ask for concrit but deep down, they don't actually think there are many flaws in their writing to concrit, so if it turns out that there are major issues... well. That really throws them for a loop and they react badly, because it feels like a betrayal.

This problem is exacerbated by the fact that most people don't know how to give concrit, and they don't know what issues a good beta/editor would be looking for, so they're unable to identify those issues in their own writing. It leads to a nasty surprise when they actually find a good beta who sees those flaws.

(Cozy werewolf anon)

I have to agree with this. Because I've done peer reviews and had people react... badly.

Like, -sigh- having been on both sides of this. there is the people don't know how to give good concrit side. like, my work has been called "unprofessional." Which is 100% not actionable. I can't do shit with that. And then once I dug into it with them, it turned out to be a... style preference issue. They wanted limited 3rd and to them that's the only "right" way to do things, and I write 3rd Omni. (This was literally their only issue outside of my pacing and slice of life is one of those things if you don't like it, you don't and i can't help you.)

Then on the other hand, there are really people who don't know/can't see the fundamentals of writing such as passive voice and show vs tell BALANCE or how plot structure/foreshadowing works. (Or genre conventions) And they surround themselves with people who ALSO don't know b/c there are lots of amateur writers out there, so when someone comes along and CAN point out with examples how their work could improve if they do X, Y, and Z. They aren't ready for it. It hurts! And instead of taking the advice (even if they asked for it) they lash out.

A good writer is also their harshest critic/editor. If not, they're most likely turning out dross. And so, before I took a break from this peer review stuff, if I couldn't give it 4 or 5 stars, I wouldn't review it because so many books weren't ready to be published. (It's not that they are bad. It's just they needed a few more rounds of editing, development and technical. Good luck getting indies to do that though.)

" And then once I dug into it with them, it turned out to be a... style preference issue."

Yeah, this is one of the ways people don't understand what issues to look for when they're editing. Too many people confuse "I like this" = good writing and "I don't like this" = bad writing and it's simply not the same thing at all. When I beta, whether or not I like the writing isn't really relevant. Do the writer's choices work for the story? Then that's good, regardless of whether or not I personally enjoyed it or found it entertaining.

Very few self-published writers get properly edited in terms of content. Very few self-pubbed writers want to pay for this service, so they exchange editing services with other self-pubbed writers and frankly... this is not necessarily a good or helpful route. Not everyone is cut out to be a developmental editor, you can't just nominate a random person who'll do it for free. This goes double for getting a fan to do it.

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

You're right. In fact, the editor discourse on twitter is mind boggling distressing. They want spag and grammar and nothing else. When time and time again, I read the books (because I try damn it, I want to be supportive) and it's the story, the structure, and things that really take time and practice to develop like characterization and description that are the problems.

The reason I trust my editor (even though she is also self-pubbed) is because she does have a Master's Degree in this stuff. I trust her to not only give me a thing of grammatical issues to WORK on b/c my ADHD self needs it, and ALSO to be able to tell me IF something is going wrong what exactly it is. Is there enough tension? Did I set and resolve a conflict? Does this need to be shown and not summarized? Etc and so forth.

So many people want to write a book. That's great. And there is a huge excitement/temptation of when you write a book to publish it right away for the feedback. And that is not so great. OK if you're writing fanfic, not OK if you want people to pay money for your book. The irony is editing is feedback. It's just the kind that makes your writing better and might not stroke your ego.

As a dev editor, I have like NO clients b/c indie authors do not want to be told "you need to fix your structure and err, take out this HUGE bit of exposition. Have you NOT watched PotC?" But err... much more nicely. And also, pandemic. I'm refusing to push when people have very little money for things like... food and rent. And I'm confused if they think professional authors don't have those people? Because they do and professional editors that pitch to trad publishing houses ARE going to give huge structural edits if they see the need for them. (Apparently Butcher had this problem.)

My books aren't high art. They're just fun little adventures, and damn it, I get them edited!

Exactly.

I was in the same boat when I was still way younger and foolishly believed that being honest would help my friend. Well, we're not friends anymore.

So my advice would be lie if necessary. The worst thing that can happen is that she becomes aware of her failings and believes you have shit taste if you said you liked her novel. I think you can live with that.

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

This is a good approach. Keep her focused on the story! that's always a good thing.

I'm not even a good writer by any measure and struggle to write a multi-chapter story, so congrats to anyone who completes a book. I also don't expect anyone's first novel-length story to be that great, but hopefully if they're going to keep on improving as a writer in the long run, it wouldn't really matter that much.

That said, the other parts in the secret about religious zealotry and bland writing is a doozy. Maybe you can gloss over reading it? Maybe suddenly admit that you have a hard time reading long-form stuff lately due to the pandemic changing things up a lot? I'm not sure how hurt your friend might be if you can't read their story, but even a little low-effort-glossing has gone well in my case when I'm offered stories to read (I honestly struggle to read stories now days, sorry).

ouch. ouch. I'm sorry OP, that's rough.

but I will raise a finger and a well,actually in Frank Peretti's defense. Yeah, the spiritual warfare stuff got old after one series of two books, it's awful that he made that his wheelhouse. But he isn't a technically bad writer. As technical chops go, he is above average in his field, and could probably hack in mainstream publishing if he cut out the altar calls. TBH I was all up those two books when I was a wee idiot, because badass angels with swords was so my jam and I was eternally chafed that everyone else wrote/drew/viewed angels as soft gentle things with pretty robes and fluffy hair.

But he's excelling in a field where nearly all of his competition is genuine shit-tier as writers so it's not hard to be above average when the average is a bunch of pioneer-woman-meets-cowboy-romance or *ahem* Left Behind.

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

Oh, I'm glad I'm not alone in the love of badass angels with swords.

I wish Kelly Armstrong would have done more with it in her Women of the Otherworld series. (I mean it took until Haunted to actually get there.) But then she went haring after Savannah and I lost interest. No. More Eve the angel with her sword in the afterlife! Gah!

(Cozy Werewolf Anon)

Oh boy. there is a lot to unpack here. And honestly, I'd need some more specifics to really be super helpful.

Given though what you've said, if she's religious and she's writing for that market, you're going to need to downgrade your expectations to... Middle Grade level writing. And there can be GOOD MG level writing. Just, don't expect... nuance.

Christian publishers have a lot of RULES. So, if she wants to be published by Tynsdale or Hatchett, brush up on their rules before giving feedback. (And by rules I mean, really black & white stories, things have to be laid out who is good and bad clearly, you see what I mean by MG.) Secondly, I'd ask her WHAT TYPE of feedback she wants from you.

Mostly, listen? Just she might need someone to just listen to her talk. encourage her to research the INDUSTRY, not just writing. (I mean, it's good she went to a conference.) For the Christian book industry, Peretti and someone like Francine Rivers are head and shoulders above a lot of them. I mean, Peretti's book "morals" are scarier than his book's demons. But for that market, he is better technically than most. (Grimaces. I mean, he's not Gilbert Morris at least. Morris makes my brain itch literally.)

It's a first draft of a first novel. If she researches the industry (and if she's serious she will do this,) she'll know what a long shot it is. That her MS should end up in a drawer to be edited in five years. And if she's really serious, she will be getting/paying for professional editors. But it's not ON YOU to have to tell her this.

Honestly, my editor mostly lets me talk my issues out. However, again, I've been at this 20 years or so from my first novel too. I can read a draft and go "I need plot" or "this doesn't have tension" and so on. That comes with experience and the only way your friend will get that is to write more books! And going "I hate this, this is bad" is not going to encourage anyone to write more books. Which, I'm sure you know! Like, "here is something good, do more of that" can be really helpful. And if she ASKS for something to work on, choose ONE thing and be all "Maybe work on that?" (Just one. Please, I had a teacher go "work on everything" and it about killed my ability to do what I love.)

hope this helps!

It's okay, though, her book doesn't have to fit your tastes. You can keep your criticism to SPAG and encourage her to seek a publisher and look at their guidelines.

It's a first novel. Spoiler alert: it's gonna suck.

But the fact that she finished her first novel is kind of a big deal. There are a lot of writers who say they're going to write a novel "someday" or who have been working over the first chapter for years because they want it to be perfect, or who have started dozens of novels but who haven't finished any because they are always falling victim to the lure of the shiny new idea.

If you do decide to critique it, one way to go is the sandwich method: open with one thing that worked, put a piece of constructive criticism in the middle (you might want to go with something concrete: maybe she uses a lot of filter words, or maybe she overuses epithets to the point of confusion). Follow up with something else that worked well.

Another thing you might try is nothing places where you were unsure what happened, or why something happened. "I don't understand why Anna felt like she had to hide the MacGuffin from Barb even though they're best friends." "Claire was snowed in at the cabin in Vermont in chapter four, so I'm not sure how she was already in Maui when Dave got there in chapter five."

I don't know how that particular branch of Christianity feels about Mormons, but maybe some of Brandon Sanderson's videos might be helpful? He has some short videos as well as his lectures at BYU. They're SF/Fantasy focused, but there are some about characters or plotting which would be useful even outside of the speculative genre.

Mostly, help her focus on the fact that writing is a long journey. Very few people sell their first book, or even their second. It helps to view every story as a learning experience, and practice; even if a novel never sells, it has something to teach the author. (For example, in my current WIP, I am concentrating on structure.) Encourage her to learn as much as she can from this book, so that she can make the next one better.

[ SECRET POST #5321 ]

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