[ SECRET POST #876 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #876 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 518 secrets from Secret Submission Post #126.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

As far as I can tell (and my knowledge of Scripture's a bit rusty, so I dunno how much of this is actually biblical), the reason Hell is considered so awful is because God isn't there. I think society has a bit of warped perception on that one, actually. Hell is just where the people who don't want to spend their eternity with God go. It's a choice to be made.

Beyond which (and this is just me talking, I'm pretty sure it's not addressed in the Bible) I don't think it's even possible to fully make that choice until death. As human beings, we have a limited understanding of God and the world. It's only when we die that we become capable of understand God and what he is - and how can you truly accept or reject someone you don't yet truly know? So I don't think anyone can end up in Hell solely based on their actions on Earth, unless, even in the face of truth, knowing the full extent of what they did in their life, they do not regret doing things they now fully recognize as wrong.

I apologize if this makes little sense, I don't think I've really tried to explain my perception of this all before ^^

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Why would anyone choose to go to Hell after death once we know there's a Heaven? Well, not including masochists, of course.

I see your point and I think it's a good way to think about it, but it's not particularly Scriptural.

Not that Hell is Scriptural either *coughspluttershutsup*.

[(Anonymous)]

Why would anyone choose to go to Hell after death once we know there's a Heaven?

This is an atheist speaking here, but...

If Hell is merely the absence of God, then it would probably be preferable to go there because all the fundies will be up there with God, who, according to some accounts, is a complete dick. He might not be, of course, but who cares? All the interesting people will be in Hell.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Dad? Is that you? XD

No, in all seriousness, that only works if there's no pleasure/pain issue to do with G-d. Sure, if Heaven and Hell are only different depending on who's there, I'd rather be in Hell with the interesting people. But that kind of nullifies the reason for there being a Hell, no?

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it's better than the other reason for there being a Hell: eternal punishment.

Because that would rather conclusively point to the God being a tremendous dick thing and would still make Hell preferable in that at least you don't have to kiss up to the universe's biggest asshole.

Really, the concept of Hell is a lose/lose situation for anyone who wants to believe in a merciful, loving God.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

The concept of Hell is totally ridiculous, I agree. Especially when you consider the standards for Heaven. Jeez.

But nothing - NOTHING - is worth eternal punishment. That's so ridiculously excessive there aren't any words to describe it.

Just to argue, though: You can have a merciful, loving G-d who wants everyone to be in Heaven but is not all-powerful and therefore cannot help that some end up in Hell. So it's not a lose/lose situation if you give up omnipotence. Or omniscience, I guess.

[(Anonymous)]

So... let's assume God is not omnipotent (even though Christianity says He is). He did still make everything, right? And that would include Hell, right? Because if the Creator didn't create everything, then who did the rest of the work?

So, if God created Hell and He doesn't really want people to go there, then why should He make it (or, perhaps more accurately, write the laws) in such a way that the vast majority of humanity is going to end up there? The guy wouldn't just be not omniscient, He'd be downright incompetent!

Then again... considering the placement of both the wind and food ducts in the human body, an incompetent God might explain a lot. ;)

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

If Hell is the absense of G-d, He didn't have to create it per se. Or perhaps one of his angels (Satan) created it?

These are all great questions, but you really are asking the wrong person if you want an answer. I'm not a Christian.

Now, about the laws - when He wrote the laws, it was to Judaism. As we don't believe in Hell (per se - we have a sort of... er, cleansing process), the laws were not made to distinguish who went to Heaven and who to "Hell". And anyway, Christianity is not about law. Law does not separate those who go to Heaven from those who go to Hell. Christians are "saved" simply by believing.

I totally agree with you that if G-d didn't want people to go to Hell and he was omnipotent, people wouldn't go to Hell. That one I can't make sense out of.

[sensualcoco.livejournal.com]

God gave humans "free will." He doesn't want us in hell. But it's our own choice if we want it.

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

According to Paradise Lost, god is omnipotent and omniscient but he still grants his creations free choice. Delving into the paradox therein is pretty much the entire point of the work and takes more words than I'm willing to type.

God did indeed create Hell, knowing that Lucifer would eventually fall to it.

And Paradise Lost was apparently based on biblical scriptures that were available at the time (but aren't now), so hey, this could all be Bible material rather than a gigantic fanfic here.

[snackbreak.livejournal.com]

Even if He was omnipotent, isn't the point of free will that we can choose Hell without his interference?

I mean, obviously no one sane is going to say "yes, Hell sounds like a good time" based off of what we think Hell is in modern society - but it's probably not that straightforward (if it exists, and I am not saying it does, I am just postulating here). If Hell is simply the "absence of God" then well, people turn away from God all the time by choice. Who hasn't rebelled against their parents, for example? I think there's a natural "I can do this myself, and I don't need your help SO BUTT OUT" instinct in most of us, even if that isn't really what we want in the long run.

(and for the record, I believe anything is possible, so I think Hell is a possibility as much as I think reincarnation is a possibility. I'm not particularly attached to it existing though - if it's made up, awesome x a million)

[bleed-peroxide.livejournal.com]

THIS. I always bring that up when I talk to someone who feels its necessary to badger me with their religion because I might let something slip, or because my clothes scream out Satan spawn (because wtf, people have complained to my parents because I wear black shirts.)

The more I read the Bible, the more I was like, "...he's selfish, doesn't seem to want women to advance in the world, he's arrogant, he's VERY arrogant, and he sounds like a dick." I mean, sending someone to suffer because they don't praise someone? I mean, that's what Christianity essentially boils down to--praising God with your life, and ministering to others in order to bring them to that religion. God created the world, if we go by that logic. Why, then, does he need millions of people telling him how fucking great he is?

Also, by their logic: God knows everything. He knew our entire lives before we were born, he created our future. He knew some people would grow up atheist or just fuck up somehow. Why would he create someone doomed to screw up and go to hell then? Or if there is free will, that implies that God isn't all-knowing. The logic constantly cancels out the other.

Sorry, on a tangent. B-b-but yes, I agree with you.

[palsmarties.livejournal.com]

Yes I am Gay, so I figure if the fundies are right then the only way I'll get into heaven is if I never ever have sex with a man I'm attracted to.
So I pretty much just figured that's no fun and then I started reading the rest of the bible.
Now whenever people try to convert me I just point out that the Old Testament God was a racist, homophobic, sexist, blood-lusting, pro-slavery God and that I would never want to spend eternity with someone like that.
And since he's supposed to be the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then he must still be a dick and he will always be a dick if he's real.

They either pity me, hate me, or laugh.

[bleed-peroxide.livejournal.com]

But then they point out the New Testament God, and I'm like, "Yeah, and he also says that a lot of the old laws are abolished. So are you now picking the laws you want to follow?"

I don't think someone's preferences should matter. Yeah, I'm straight myself, but I'd be the first to say that it's not impossible that I could fall for a woman in the future. I don't know that I ever will, but it'd be stupid to write it off because zomg!same sex. I'm not even bisexual, but my thing is, I call myself straight because I have yet to find myself attracted to another woman the way I'm attracted to men. But who's to say that's permanent. You can't help who you fall for.

I like how Bjork said it: "I think everyone's bisexual to some degree or another; it's just a question of whether or not you choose to recognize it and embrace it. Personally, I think choosing between men and women is like choosing between cake and ice cream. You'd be daft not to try both when there are so many different flavours."

[icthyopook.livejournal.com]

This is only if you take the Bible literally...

The Bible was written by man. If you really read it, you'll notice that very different people were penning different parts of the Bible. The God of the Old Testament is completely contradictory to the God of the New Testament, but that makes perfect sense because the God of the New Testament is the God of Jesus. Jesus came in and shook everyone by the shoulders- essentially yelling "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!" to the major religious leaders of the time. If you read the New Testament you'll notice that the stories Jesus tells are of a God who is loving and accepting.

I mean, that's what Christianity essentially boils down to--praising God with your life, and ministering to others in order to bring them to that religion.
That is not what Christianity boils down to. That is what false Christianity boils down to; the Christianity that is preached on televisions and pushed by anti-abortionists and homosexual haters- that is not what Christianity is.

Christianity is about following Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was a loving and accepting man. If you want to understand this religion instead of pushing it away and chalking it up to hateful bullshit, you should read the New Testament. Christianity is not what the media makes it out to be. And by media, I mean IT'S OWN media. Christian media today is preaching the OPPOSITE of what Christianity is about. If these new Christians actually read their Bibles instead of worshiping Televangelists, they would know that.

Don't base your opinion of God and this religion on what other people say it is. If you really want to know, look into it yourself. If anything, the stories of the New Testament are very powerful stories that will at least teach you something, even if you don't end up believing in God/ whatever. Regardless, it is a good read.

Why should you believe me?

Jesus never once says anything about abortion, homosexuality, evolution, etc... all of these unimportant issues that the false Christians of today push and push and push... Jesus never once brought them up. Of course evolution was not discussed because the theory did not exist then, but still. The Church has manufactured these issues from old scripture written by man that never came from the mouth of Jesus.

[(Anonymous)]

If you think abortion is unimportant issue, you fail.

[bleed-peroxide.livejournal.com]

Hmm... you bring up a lot of good points. It's refreshing to hear someone that doesn't agree 100% with everything the church says or does--I'm accustomed to them parroting their doctrine in my ear all the time -__-

What I like about this comment is that you're advocating the man, not the religion, and the fact that he doesn't preach about half the shit that Christians like to gripe about. My church would always go on about how awful this movie or whatever was because *gasp* it totally went against their beliefs, and I was like, "...where in the Bible does it say that we're supposed to boycott movies or something?" Jesus talked way more about money than he ever did about abortion, but somehow it's vitally important that some Christians (extreme ones, I grant you) scream at women going into abortion clinics. How does that preach love to anyone when you're saying, "You're a baby killer, but Jesus loves you"?

I'm rambling and probably make no sense, but thank you for writing that. It restores my faith in Christianity a bit. I have a lot to sift through, but there's a reason I'm just agnostic, not atheist. I doubt a lot, I question a lot, but there's still a part of me that can't just renounce my religion completely. I'm still in that "finding answers" phase, but I'm sure as hell not going to get satisfactory answers from the preachers at my church. (Souther Baptist, anyone?)

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

You have to realize that the Bible was written for an earlier time, and through the eyes of the men of that time as they write about God. You can't just take things said completely out of context and expect them to fit modern times. Especially if you're reading Old Testament, yeah, Leviticus was a nutbar and Job was a diiiiiick (no, men of Sodom! Don't rape my sons, for it is a sin! Take my daughters instead!)

The base idea of Christianity does state that humans have free will - God, being all knowing, knows what people will choose, but that doesn't diminish their choosing.

You can really read a lot of it in different ways depending on the angle you take. I mean, hell, look at Christians vs. Jews. (if you want to get really crazy, check out Gnosticism).

[shishiomaru.livejournal.com]

Job was a diiiiick You mean Lot? Not to nitpick but it was a pair of angels, not his sons, that Lot was defending from the mob. Which, if you think about it, makes it even worse. The angels could defend themselves. His daughters, not so much.

Also, don't forget about Abraham, who was more than willing to sacrifice his only child as proof of the faith God already knew he had. The same kid, by the way, that God sent to him as a REWARD for his faith.

The Old Testament is full of morally questionable actions like that, which, to me at least, makes accepting God as a benevolent being much more difficult.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

That depends on where the "arrow of causality" is pointing. Do we make choices because G-d knows which choice we will choose, or does G-d know which choices we will make because we will make them?

I didn't explain it very well. Peter Vardy does a great job of it, though.

[tomatocaco.livejournal.com]

YES. I really want to write some kind of story that debunks heaven-as-utopia, because the existance of hell automatically keeps it from being perfect. I'm atheist, but I can't see anyone enjoying heaven if anyone they knew or cared for were in hell. Especially if it were the kind of hell where people were burning just because they had gay sex they weren't sorry for.

[sensualcoco.livejournal.com]

See I've always understood Heaven and Hell as being during this lifetime.

Believing and trusting in God can give you a piece of mind, a purpose on this planet, in a way Heaven.

Whereas if you reject the idea of God or something greater than yourself it can make you feel empty.

But I take everything pretty metaphorically and can't fathom a life after death.

[(Anonymous)]

A nice idea, perhaps, but not consistent with reality.

There are plenty of religious people that are more often miserable than happy and there are plenty of atheists that are more often happy than miserable.

Indeed, for some (or perhaps even quite a few) atheists, admitting that there probably is no God in any way, shape or form is experienced as a liberating and uplifting notion.

[sensualcoco.livejournal.com]

Well I'm not saying it's reality, just how I would understand it metaphorically.

But as a whole I believe religion was created to give us peace of mind. It was meant to explain things we don't understand and give us hope that if we work hard and do good we'll be rewarded.

[bleed-peroxide.livejournal.com]

Hell is actually describe as fiery place in the Buybull.

Beware of horribly-designed but lulzy webpage (http://www.fillthevoid.org/Christian/Hell/HellBiblicaldescription.html)
Biased site. (http://www.therefinersfire.org/hell.htm)
"When Hell Happens" makes it sound like getting your first car or some other milestone. (http://www.hellhappens.com/description-of-hell.htm)