[ SECRET POST #092 ]

[grayout.livejournal.com]

⌈ Secret Post #092 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.



Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 61 secrets from Secret Submission Post #014.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!secrets, 0 not!fandom.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Sunday, April 8th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: Here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ovendoor.livejournal.com]

I understand why you think that, but homophobia is still pretty much on a high in England, and yet it's now legal for gay people to marry.
Basing the future on stupid opinions will get you no where. I know it's caused people a lot of shit, but at the end of the day, you are who you are, and an opinion won't change that.

[ovendoor.livejournal.com]

I agree that there are plently of people that stay closeted because they can't deal with the fear of being gay, i really do. But i haven't been in that particular situation before, so i can't completely understand how someone like that would feel, but i grew up in a place where it was alright to be different and express who you are, so i've never hard to experience something like that. I was just brought up to be proud of who i was and what i am, so i guess im slightly ignorant towards the idea of 'not being able to express yourself' type thing. Sorry if i offended you.

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

ROFL. You sound like you've had first hand experience.

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but my lesbians friends don't get stigma here, so I wasn't sure if this was just coming from someone with experience or just deduced. I'll have to say. I'm neutral about gays. I have friends who are lesbians. But I'll be very blunt and quote from my lesbian friends:

"If you can't take the heat of being a gay which includes society and its own views, then don't be one."

Its about whether you want to be affected or not by opinions. The world is this harsh. Its this unfair. Live with it.

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

It just boils down to whether you truly believe in the person you are or not. I don't understand how people can fear being a lesbian just because of opinions, its as good as asking me to go hide myself because now the world views Asia as a place where terrorists are born. As prejudiced as that sounds, I'm being told that. Does this mean I start fearing to be an Asian?

But you are who you are, so if you are confident of your identity, nothing will shake that resolve that you who you are and people's opinions just don't count.

If they can't deal with opinions like how you can, then I'll have to say that's their problem and its really not society they can blame. And adding on. That person who posted that banner was entitled to his own opinion. We could all be logical and respected his own opinion. But calling him names, the people who used vulgar language... It just reflected very badly on how we all lack the capability of respecting each others views.

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

Thats also where this comparison ends. Majority of kids don't grow up having their parents tell them day after day that being a lesbian is wrong. These opinions come from society.

You're not respecting the person. It's just the opinion. Like if I said I hated leather, am I going to get prank calls and letters of hate telling me I am an airhead? We can't possibly jump at every negative comment that was made on what we believed in. Don't you think thats mundane and tiring?

This is clearly going no where. Because what I experience here is different from what you're experiencing. I come from a girl school where lesbians make up 60% of the cohort. They don't care about how people view them, they go through countless counselling from the school but wth, they just continue being who they are and their proud of it.

They don't cave into society's demands, and they snog in public, hold hands in public, go out in public. I've heard my fair share of nasty opinions, but they ignore it, and choose to be nonchalant about it. Because they feel there's nothing to be so defensive or angry about, people don't understand and therefore they makes opinions carelessly.There is no point wasting time in making society understand, trying to get them to change or stop - because they won't, and it wouldn't happen any time soon.

So getting all defensive, upset about it in the end is just not worth it. Its about learning and let live. I just personally feel that your own personality and beliefs play a very big role.

This matter is being blown out of proportion.

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

I won't comment further.

I apologize for offending you and for not having an intolerance for the person who posted that banner.

[ew-younerd.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm astounded by the sheer dumbassery.

To address the issue of the matter being blown out of proportion, most of the people whom have been stating their opinion against the secret (that are not anonymous) have not used any hateful language. As stated before, the secret-maker is cloaked in the secure veil of internet anonymity. There can be no personal attacks declared on their character, there can only be disagreement with their opinion. I will not hate them for hating gays, I will not tell them it is not their right to write slash fanfiction while simultaneousely hating gays. However, a generalized statement in such a manner is going to get backlash.

Your personal experience has no bearing on any universal law or statistics, so sharing your personal experience with lesbians pretty much is a moot point in any argument concerning the secret maker. I was content to just make a comment saying "you're gay, lol" to the secret maker. However, the ensuing replies that somehow projected their own feelings on to a statement that left little room for interpretation baffled me and I furthered into questioning why they believe such things.

Your apathetic atittude towards societal stagnation of acceptance of anything different never got anyone anywhere. You're acting as if there were personal attacks in rebuttal against the secret maker. In fact, most have nothing to really say to the secret maker. They said "I hate gays." What can be said in return? "Well, uh, I don't and I think that's dumb?"

You're failing to differentiate between the opinion of an individual whom is making a sole statement that is applicable to an entire population regardless of personal character or creed, and someone disagreeing with hateful words. Sharing a different perspective in the long run is not disrespecting an opinion.

Thats also where this comparison ends. Majority of kids don't grow up having their parents tell them day after day that being a lesbian is wrong. These opinions come from society.

And where did their parents grow up? Yes, that is correct, in a society. And a good portion of parents would get irrationally angry at their children for coming out as homosexual.

Everything you are stating can be used in reverse-rebuttal against you. You speak of not getting defensive or wanting to change someone's opinion, of not caring what society thinks, and yet you're conversing with someone to do just that: change their opinion and get them to stop what they are saying.

If you are using your friends' personal experiences to prove a point, this is known as the logical fallacy called "proof by example", and it will get you nowhere in debate. If you are someone who thinks that just because oppression will never stop, that people are whining and blowing things out of proportion for fighting it instead of just 'living and let living' (this is also a fallacy since you are indicating it should only be applicable to the oppressed and not the oppressers, otherwise the live and let live rule would insinuate they stop the oppression), then you have a rather naive outlook on the world. People have social influence. You've been socially effected by everything around you, and if you can admit that then I have hope for you, my young child. But if you cannot, that is where this conversation ends forever.

[grayout.livejournal.com]

Okay, look, seriously, stop this.

You're trying not to be hateful and you're trying not to be condescending (or maybe you are, it comes off that way 95% of the time), but you're "astounded by the sheer dumbassery" of this "young child."

If you're conversing to change the opinions of someone, you're not going to get them to change their minds by insulting them and generally being bitchy about the subject. In fact, you're just going to alienate people even more -- and you ARE doing it; I've had a number of people complain to me, personally, about it and how you're making them-as-a-group look bad.

Please. Just stop.

[ew-younerd.livejournal.com]

Young child was a joke. I call everyone kiddo and young child, I'm nineteen, two years older than this person, I doubt they're going to cry about it.

I'm making people as a group look bad? Who? All I'm doing is sharing my opinion! Isn't that what this entire thing is about?

Anyways, the fact that I'm making an 'entire group' look bad brings me joy. Kind of like saying how campy gay men convert to stereotypes or saying I HATE GAY PEOPLE makes people as a group look bad.

:) Your hypocracy is cracking me up.

I'm not trying to change the opinions of anyone. And I didn't mean 'her' dumbassery, I meant the dumbassery of this still going on.

But okay okay, I'll shut up forever. You can freeze replies to me if you want or something, I don't care. The internet tears have made my heart grow three times its size today, and I'm so sorry that me debating with people hurt people's feelings :( I'll just make secrets about hating them instead, that way I can get people to stick up for me!

[ovendoor.livejournal.com]

Okay im sorry, im not hear to cause ANYMORE drama, but ffs this has to be said.

Wow, I'm astounded by the sheer dumbassery.

There was no need to say something so crude to ilovehugs. You really should be ashamed of yourself, just because you're on the internet does not mean you have the right to say such a thing to someone and think you'll get away with it.
Normally i wouldn't be so offended on someone else's behalf, but she is a friend, and therefore i will stick up for her. I hope you'll actually understand where the hell im coming from and just apologise.

[bubble.livejournal.com]

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

Do you people read?

I admit, I shouldn't have used the word dumbassery and I retract it. It was bitchy of me. I am just angry this is dragging on.

And I didn't mean 'her' dumbassery, I meant the dumbassery of this still going on.

;_;

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

You've been socially effected by everything around you, and if you can admit that then I have hope for you, my young child.

Do you enjoy making assumptions about people? Because this is what the very people you hate- actually do, back to you.

[icemilk.livejournal.com]

rofl, I blame anime for this whole internet movement of "if you believe in yourself you can achieve anything!!!" as an actual response to all of the real world's problems. Disregarding you know, uh, actual statistics that prove that gays are at a much a higher risk for psychopathology and suicide and of course that's their fault, for not believing!

Believe it!

[ew-younerd.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, you basically saying "If you cannot handle being gay, don't be gay" was kind of the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But it's just my opinion, so if you disagree with me that means you're disrespecting me and attacking me, and I shall call my internet lawyers. I don't mean to be a jerk, but it's the truth. People don't choose it.

I suppose if you're going to not like the oppression that comes with being a woman in some parts of Iran, you should just not be a woman. Or if you do not like the oppression of sharing your opinion on the internet, then uh, don't share it. :D

[baegopa.livejournal.com]

But it's just my opinion, so if you disagree with me that means you're disrespecting me and attacking me, and I shall call my internet lawyers.

Thanks, because of you, I finally understand what some of the commentors mean.

[vaultedthewall.livejournal.com]

Like if I said I hated leather, am I going to get prank calls and letters of hate telling me I am an airhead?

Only if you make it a habit of wearing a leather jacket and boots every day.

...Which the OP kind of does.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

"If you can't take the heat of being a gay which includes society and its own views, then don't be one."

The problem with this statement is twofold: logical and moral.

Let's tackle the logical problem with it first. By stating that it is the minority's responsibility to avoid prejudice, rather than the bigot's responsibility to avoid taking prejudiced actions, you are shifting the blame for the results of prejudice away from where it logically belongs: square on the shoulders of the people who do prejudiced things.

By your logic, if a gay teenager grows up hating himself because his parents tell him that he's worthless and going to hell, it's his fault for putting himself in a position to be abused and not being tough enough to take it. His parents are absolved of blame, even though they were the ones who said the things that triggered the boy's self-loathing.

This is akin to saying that if a person is standing by a window and someone throws a rock through the window, hitting them in the head, it's their fault if they get a concussion. They should have been wearing a hardhat.

This brings me to the moral aspect of your argument. The analogy I just used was a relatively neutral one, not designed to bring up issues of oppression and bigotry.

But I could also point out that your argument is simply another version of the time-old claim: "It's her fault she got raped--she was dressed like a slut/alone at night/in a bad neighborhood/drunk at a party."

I think most people can recognize how wrong that statement is. And therein is the moral flaw of your argument: it shifts the blame for pain and suffering from the oppressor, who is the one who needs to learn to change and stop hurting people, to the oppressed, who is the one suffering.

Someone being hurt by other people or by society should not be forced to take responsibility for the actions that hurt them. Why? Because if we pawn off responsibility for bigotry on its victims, it will never change. Society will never improve for any minority.

The mindset that leads to this kind of accusation is fairly understandable, at least. On the side of members of the majority, it's much easier to blame the minority on some nebulous charge of not being strong enough to hack it in this tough world. Because that means that nobody has to do anything to improve the situation; the world is tough, that's just the way it is. Dealing with it isn't the majority's problem.

On the side of other members of the minority, it's comforting to say, "If you can't take the pressure of being a member of such-and-such a minority, don't be one," because it makes them feel that they're special for being able to tough it out, instead of just lucky to have a supportive family/emotional resilience/an accepting environment/whatever it is that helped them get through it.

Either way, though, it's harmful to the progress of society as a whole and unjustifiable as a belief.

[ew-younerd.livejournal.com]

♥__♥ Thanks for undoing the damage I did to the lesbian community.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

Shhh...I never said I'm a lesbian.

I don't know if I can take it. ;_;