[ SECRET POST #1271 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1271 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

No mudkips, don't worry.

Secrets Left to Post: 25 pages, 608 secrets from Secret Submission Post #182.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom.livejournal.com]

155. http://i50.tinypic.com/2aihidy.png

[bloodrivendream.livejournal.com]

RL and what you read/write often do not correlate perfectly.

For some reason some female AND male writers seem to be more comfortable with and better at writing male characters. Same goes with some females AND males being better at writing female characters.

I think... it is more complex than just internalised misogyny or misandry.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS. I really hate the sentiment that less female characters in a story ALWAYS = misogyny. Some people are just more comfortable/better at writing a certain gender than another.

[caelith.livejournal.com]

It'd be nice to just write what you want without some idiot sticking a label on you, based on just one aspect of your life.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, but you can't have that here.... what would fandom_secrets be if people didn't jump to ridiculous conclusions based on a handful of words???

[(Anonymous)]

I think I get what you're saying. Kind of. I read a lot of things like rape fic, torture fic, all kinds of angst, but only where the victim is male. Fic where a female character is raped just makes me uncomfortable.

[avocado-love.livejournal.com]

I tend not to write female characters leads, because I can't help but see myself in them and that makes me uncomfortable. I want to show the story of someone else, and not of myself. And if anyone has any problem with my use of male characters, they haven't said anything about it.

I think you're being too hard on yourself, OP. As you're clearly aware of the issue, you're already further along the enlightened path than most people.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

I'm the opposite of you anon - I grew up with only brothers, was quite the tomboy as a child and still have mostly male friends (not by choice, I love my female friends and would like to make more, it's just that guys tend to share my hobbies) - and I write mostly male protagonists because it's easier for me. I'm more familiar with their thoughts and experiences; if I were to write about females I have a much smaller sample size, and there's no way I'm going to base my characterizations on what I see of women as portrayed in the media. Eugh. Nor am I going to assume my thoughts and experiences speak for those of all women.

That said, I've had the same thoughts as you, and lately I'm trying to write with more and more female characters, especially protagonists. It's actually extremely rewarding, and has improved my writing by leaps and bounds. I would highly recommend it.

(As for the trauma/abuse issue, I think that's different for everyone. I've noticed that it's very common for authors of both genders - to heap all of the abuse, especially sexual abuse, onto characters of the opposite sex. I think that this is either because it hits too close to home if it's the other way around - it's easier to discuss the topic when it's happening to The Other, and not The Self, so to speak - or because the author has sexualized the abuse and thus would, obviously, like to see it happen to the gender they're attracted to.)

[thene]

I'm not getting how male thoughts and experiences are so different from female thoughts and experiences that it should affect how a character is written. What happened to human thoughts and experiences?

Here's a quote from Are Women Human? by Dorothy L Sayers for you:

A man once asked me--it is true that it was at the end of a very good dinner, and the compliment conveyed may have been due to that circumstance--how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a larged, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. 'Well,' said the man, 'I shouldn't have expected a woman [meaning me] to have been able to make it so convincing.' I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

This is an awesome quote, and I knew there was a reason I love La Sayers.

[thene]

I have been euphemistically IDing as a Friend Of Dorothy L Sayers lately :D

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, oh, heavens. This is so sane.
<3<3

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

No, I'd disagree. There are significant differences between men and women, some of which are innate but more of which arise in cultural environments and social expectations. Sure, a scene with men having a conversation may be similar to a scene with women having a conversation, but a story about a man is vastly different from a story about a woman. I would like to write about more female characters, myself, and every time I start a story I think to myself, "Would this story work the way I wanted it to if the main character were female instead of male?" Unfortunately, the answer is usually no.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

...Facepalm.

Of course they're human experiences. But men and women are socialized differently in our culture - this is undeniable. As a result, they tend toward slightly different experiences, and these experiences colour their outlooks on life, and consequently the way they think.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Are you me, OP? I feel like I have the same reason - on the rare occasion I do have a female character, I usually write her in a position of power, because I don't want anything bad to happen to her. This doesn't necessarily stem from misandry, however. It may just be a matter of taste - men who are hurt and downtrodden often react very differently from women who are hurt and downtrodden. (In part, due to cultural expectations - men are more likely to be expected to soldier through difficulties unemotionally, and this puts a bigger strain on them.) Or it might be very slightly kinky, if you're straight; personally, I find it both pleasant and unpleasant to see men hurt, but only unpleasant to see women hurt.
And there might be more reasons than just your love of torturing the main characters. Men and women do behave differently, and you may just enjoy writing the behavior of men more. I certainly do, for several reasons of my own.
I also wonder if it's because we're exposed to a broader range of male characters than female characters, so we are more at ease writing them. I know that I personally admire very few female characters, which is sad. I do worry about that, and am always looking for strong female characters in both what I read and what I write.
You want to talk, OP? Please, talk to me. PM me, AIM me, whatever.

[thene]

men are more likely to be expected to soldier through difficulties unemotionally, and this puts a bigger strain on them.

[citation needed]

Srsly. I guess it depends somewhat on what sort of 'difficulties' you're referring to and what sort of emotions you're referring to. I'm tempted to refer you to the only good Family Guy episode - the one where Lois flips her shit and climbs the Christmas tree. Women - mothers especially - are frequently expected to soldier through difficulties and to not express anger or other strong negative emotions.

I feel that reluctance to hurt female characters may stem from a culture of misogynistic 'chivalry' - the culture that says both 'don't hit girls' and 'girls aren't allowed to hit back'. The differences between men and women are much, much smaller than the differences in the social expectations of men and the social expectations of women. I tend to go with 'nonexistent' because I am tired of being told that I can't possibly exist because I identify with women's expectations not at fucking all.

Broader range is definitely true - there's some female characters I love but many I hate because they're not written as if they were people; their role is 'woman' rather than 'person' and that is just boring and artificial as all fuck. Most of my OCs and almost all my RP characters are female (okay, a few of them are genderqueer). Most of the characters I write about in fanfics are cisgendered men.

Spoiler, the character in my icon is a guy. A dead guy who's possessing a female body because it was the first one he found, so I think of him as a trans guy who presents as female because it's convenient. This may be a translation error but I don't care - the English version definitely states that Minette is really a dude.

[demiincarnate.livejournal.com]

Citation needed? Don't tell me you've never heard misogynists say that women are "weaker" and "more emotional". Don't tell me you've never heard the expression "I hate to see a grown man cry". I'd say that's one of the biggest issues of discrimination against women, that people assume that women are prone to breaking down in tears while men can just buck up and face things. It is true that women are expected not to express anger but rather to express defeat, but my point was less that women get off easy (which they don't) and more that people expect men to deal with problems in a different way.
We agree on a very important fact: The differences between men and women are much, much smaller than the differences in the social expectations of men and the social expectations of women. This is the biggest reason why male characters and female characters are different. At the same time, it's simply irresponsible to claim that men and women are innately the same. Biology has proven otherwise. Men and women do think differently, and behave differently. The difference is small, but it's there, and shouldn't be ignored. If the minds of men and women were identical, gender identity wouldn't be an issue, because the only determinant of gender would be the body. I do not fit many stereotypical views of women, myself, but my mind is not very feminine.
Chivalry may be the reasons some authors prefer not to hurt women, but not I. I just happen to enjoy writing stories in which male characters get hurt. This is probably because I find men sexually attractive.

[dethtoll.livejournal.com]

so sometimes at work i go get dinner at chickafila (i work nights)

the sandwiches aren't bad, for the price, but the nuggets are bullshit, they're tiny and cost like 6 bucks for 8 pieces

i dreamt last night that i opened a nugget box and it was full of tiny fried severed heads

that's not the worst part

the worst part is i ate them anyway 'cuz they were bigger than the chicken

i don't even know what the fuck that even means but i'm not getting chickafila for a while

[(Anonymous)]

OP here.
I get what you say about 'chivalry' (though, I can say that in my fics, though I prefer that the girls not be hit, I would absolutely expect them to hit back).
But part of the reason I'm so confused is also because I think I just wouldn't get the same satisfaction out of whaling on a female character the way I do on the male ones.
On the other hand, I only have one major fandom, and in that fandom the character I identify the most with is male - which definitely contributes to writing about men more.

[(Anonymous)]

For me, the ratio of my male characters to my female is about 5:3. I think it's because I get the female characters reactions down easier because they are aspects of me. With guys I tend to play around trying to get a feel for certain facets of their personality, with women, I tend to focus on backstory for the personality I've got. I guess it's just that I'm in a mood for experimentation rather than coming up with complicated backstories.

[(Anonymous)]

I torture male characters in my fanfiction. This is because I identify with them. I tend to hate female characters- for what I'd like to believe are good reasons, but if people want to complain about how I'm a misogynist feminist anti-feminist or whatever, I encourage people to have a field day with it.

In my original fic, I write women I can relate to, and then torture them.

[anivad.livejournal.com]

I like you and I do this too.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I do have female characters I like very much, though I don't know how I'd write them, as in my major fandom my favored character is male. In original fic I haven't written much, but right now I'm looking at 3 main characters - one male, one female, and one who is basically male but started out nonhuman and has complicated stuff going on there.
I suppose I will find out how much I like to torture the woman :)

[(Anonymous)]

When I first started writing, my favorite characters were from books like Narnia and LotR. English authors. I started writing about people in England, never mind that I grew up in California. This is just what you wrote about, it felt like. I wanted to write well, I wanted to write the stuff I liked, and what I had liked so far took place in England.

We are trained from a very young age to empathize/like White Male Lead Characters. Look at the cartoons you watched as a child, look at the books you read, think about your past favorite characters, I bet your going to find them overwhelmingly dominated by white males. This isn't your fault, it's an institution that's been in place since white dominated societies began.

When you are a child and you're looking at these choices, just as an example:

Male Lead, Characteristics: Brave, outgoing, bossy
Male Friend: Funny, helpful
Male Friend: Bookish, shy
Female Lead: FEMALE, SHE IS FEMALE, SHE IS FEMALE.

Odds are that you're going to start drifting toward one of the characters that actually has a personality, one like yours, maybe, rather than the female character that is very flat and a stereotype. After a while it becomes a habit, and this is why we reject awesome female leads when they are finally given to us. We've spent so long being given sour apples, we've been made biased against them, and when we think about characters we like, a female one doesn't come to mind.

This is my theory on it, anyway.

[(Anonymous)]

Ohmigod, OP, are you me? >< I'm EXACTLY like this and never thought I would meet anyone else who was. I don't really have anything to say regarding whether you're messed up or not but...at least if you are, we're messed up together!