fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1577 ]

[ SECRET POST #1577 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1577 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 044 secrets from Secret Submission Post #225.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Feminist criticism is like the new fandom excuse to rip on female characters.

It's not what feminism if for guys.

Edited 2011-04-29 00:45 (UTC)

Thissssssss. So much this. "It's not that I'm complaining about character x because I'm projecting myself onto her or because I want her to Die for My Ship, I just want to talk about how she's not being a strong feminist role model. God, don't you like feminism?"

It's a sneak attack of hate, ant it's really really pervasive. Another good example is all those slash fans who insist that they like strong women, no really, but never seem to be able to find any strong women in their fandoms.

It would be nice if you didn't throw in a jab at slash fans, considering how I've had the exact opposite experience. It's fandom-specific and generalizing like that is only asking for trouble.

But it happens. I'm not, like vilifying slash here. I'm writing a slash fic atm, for someone. I have no problem with slash. In the comment below, I say that although it's not a great position to hold generally, I don't mind slash fans who are upfront about the fact that they don't like girls.

What I was complaining about was Slash fans who know that slash fans are often criticised for ignoring women, so they insist that they love strong female characters, but yet criticise every individual female character they come across, often on "feminist" grounds. You say you haven't run into this problem? Well you lucky duck. But it is a common enough problem that I don't only know it from my fandom - I'm also aware of it from meta sites like f!s and fandom wank.

Are we cool?

Another good example is all those slash fans who insist that they like strong women, no really, but never seem to be able to find any strong women in their fandoms.

Being predominately a slash writer, I have experienced this in soooo many of my fandoms. Lip service paid to female characters to avoid crit. These girls are their "real" favourite character even though they have no icons, write no fic, don't do meta, don't ship any het/femmeslash, ect. I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with getting into a fandom where you aren't actively interested in the female cast. I've been there at least once (even though I probably couldn't do it anymore). But the ones who do what you describe are the ones you know couldn't give a shit about girls in media and would be content if every series was a Blue Bishounen Ghetto (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueBishonenGhetto) nightmare.

Yeah. I'm not really a slash fan (though I'm writing a slash fic on request atm) so I don't interact with the fans on a daily basis, but even just from here, fandom wank and various other meta communities I know how prevelant this attitude. And you're right - if the author straight up admits they don't care about any of the female characters, well it's not great, but at the same time it's not like I have to read their work. The really unbearable ones are the people who insist they like girls but then find every excuse under the sun to complain about or criticise individual girls.

Well, there are some series where I think it is more than valid to criticize how women are portrayed: one that hops to mind would be Naruto. This is a world where physical strength isn't nearly as important as the magical ninja skills: and yet, the women tend to be both weaker and involved in less important fights, AND are more likely to need rescuing mid-fight than the men.

It bothers me. Individual characters in Naruto don't bother me so much: I enjoy Sakura and I adore Hinata, and Konan is both gorgeous and kickass. But these characters are underutilized, often ignored, and their main character arcs all make them adjuncts to men in some way.

You'd agree with that kind of critcism, wouldn't you?

Slightly OT, I guess, since I agree with everything you've said above and have nothing further to add (except maybe some random recommendations that nobody would ever pick up and/or read, so I'll forgo making them), but:

I see you have a Bakemonogatari icon. I actually recently finished watching the series a few months ago, and while I did like it, I find its portrayal of female characters extraordinarily problematic. For one, the show is practically filmed for the male gaze, and the degree to which women are objectified in the show makes me feel uneasy. (That being said, I suppose this criticism can all be hand-waved away since the story is essentially told from Araragi's point of view, and he is a male teenager with a healthy sex drive.) But for another, all the characters that need rescuing are, well ... female. And while Araragi himself gets into a few rough situations, most notably during Kanbaru's arc and to a lesser extent the ... cat arc (the name escapes me), the entire series is basically structured around the premise that there are these women out there who, for whatever reason, can't help themselves and need him to intervene in their lives in order to set things "right" again.

All this without covering the fact that every female character in the show seems to be attracted to him, even the self-proclaimed lesbian.

So, I'm kind of wondering what you think about the show's portrayal of women. I assume you liked it quite a bit, and I'd like to hear your thoughts about this if it's not too much trouble. I just trawled through your public journal entries to see if I could perhaps find a review of the show. I didn't see one, but feel free to just point me towards it if I somehow missed it.

Or you can just ignore me. That works too! XD

even the self-proclaimed lesbian.

I thought Kanbaru was just playing Ryaryragi-san up so he'd pick her and dump Senjougahara, so Kanbaru could have Senjougahara all to herself?

cat arc (the name escapes me)

Hanekawa's the name of the character, maybe Tsubasa Cat? Or something, idk.

the entire series is basically structured around the premise that there are these women out there who, for whatever reason, can't help themselves and need him to intervene in their lives in order to set things "right" again.

That's because it's technically a harem genre, and that's what harem genres do; have one male and loads of females interact with him. However, Bakemonogatari is a harem genre done right, in which it features extremely interesting characters that're hilarious, well-developed and likable, each with problems they either don't know how to solve by themselves or don't particularly want to solve by themselves.

They just happen to, coincidentally, be female. idk it's how i see it.

I thought Kanbaru was just playing Ryaryragi-san up so he'd pick her and dump Senjougahara, so Kanbaru could have Senjougahara all to herself?

Kanbaru confuses me greatly, though from what I can tell in the actual novels, she is genuinely attracted to him. If my memory's not faulty, she pretty much said something along the lines of "I usually go for girls but I really wouldn't mind going out with you" in the novels after her arc had concluded. Which doesn't discount what you're saying in the least! It's possible (and very likely) that she's both attracted to him and had planned to take Senjoulwozzat for herself.

That's because it's technically a harem genre, and that's what harem genres do; have one male and loads of females interact with him [...] They just happen to, coincidentally, be female. idk it's how i see it.

You're contradicting yourself here. If it's a harem anime, then no, the characters don't just "happen" to all be female by coincidence. They're female to interact with the one male character to make it a harem anime.

Is that shoddy writing? Welllllllll. I wouldn't go so far as to say "shoddy" because it was done purposefully, but as I mentioned, it almost put me off the show, even though the show is theoretically right down my alley. I mean, it could be that I'm just criticizing the entire genre as a whole, simply because I don't truly see how balancing out the gender ratio a little more could have done anything but added to the complexity of the series.

I don't know. As a harem anime, sure, it's great; it works within the confines of its own genre very well! But it doesn't really subvert anything in the genre, and I guess that's what is bothering me. It could have been a 10/10 show for me, but because of the way it worked out, it's kind of hovering at a 7/10. Just a little frustrated at the lost potential, I suppose.

Did it achieve what it set out to do? Probably. Did it achieve what I thought it would do? Most definitely not.

Kanbaru confuses me greatly, though from what I can tell in the actual novels, she is genuinely attracted to him. If my memory's not faulty, she pretty much said something along the lines of "I usually go for girls but I really wouldn't mind going out with you" in the novels after her arc had concluded. Which doesn't discount what you're saying in the least! It's possible (and very likely) that she's both attracted to him and had planned to take Senjoulwozzat for herself.

WHAT, REALLY. I haven't read the novels, so I wouldn't know, but augh. Maybe she's still trying it on with him in the feeble hopes that it might one day work? Senjougahara would probably still be teasing her like the hilarious person she is, so...

You're contradicting yourself here. If it's a harem anime, then no, the characters don't just "happen" to all be female by coincidence. They're female to interact with the one male character to make it a harem anime.

I meant in terms of character, haha. When I judge a character, gender doesn't matter to me at all, since a shit character = shit character, whether they're male, female, hermaphrodites or a species of sentient plant.

Focusing just on the gender ratio, though, it is a harem in name only. ...At least, just from the anime series, 'cause I only watched that;;

I mean, it could be that I'm just criticizing the entire genre as a whole,

I watch loads of shitty harems, and I usually fucking hate them. The only reason I carry on watching them is for the one character that magically is a good one, l-lmao. Bakemonogatari was the second harem to make me ignore the fact it was a harem because the majority of the characters as well as the dialogue, pacing, narration and plot were FANTAAASTIC.

simply because I don't truly see how balancing out the gender ratio a little more could have done anything but added to the complexity of the series.

I don't see why the gender ratio should matter at all, personally. As long as the characters themselves are great, I honestly could not give a flying ballsack on a kebab whether they have tits or not.

don't know. As a harem anime, sure, it's great; it works within the confines of its own genre very well! But it doesn't really subvert anything in the genre, and I guess that's what is bothering me.

Watch Mai-HiME. I really enjoyed that, and honestly did not expect it to be classified as a MAGICAL GIRL SHOW of all things, considering everything was so well-developed and lovely and the characters were so amazing. I'd do some shameless plugging of Strike Witches, too, but lmao the fanservice in that is awful. I could ignore it, since I did tolerate Seikon no Qwaser just for Hikasa Yoko and Hana, but looool.

They're all kickass and amazing characters that're female, though, which I think sounds straight up your ally? idk lol.

Did it achieve what it set out to do? Probably. Did it achieve what I thought it would do? Most definitely not.

Well, if you go into Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu or something with expectations of something equal to Waiting for Godot, you're gonna be disappointed. A weird example, but I think you should judge the show on how it actually was, rather than how you expected it to be?

OH, and my best friend says this:

"i think what it subverts in the harem genre is that he is in a relationship for almost the entire series?
rather than just being about a single Pimpbro hanging and flirting with all his bitches.
i'm also pretty sure arararararagi needed saving, too! with the whole vampire thing that meme helped him out with.
so he was basically just passing on the torch of helpfulness, which isn't a bad thing."

W-Which is are very good points I didn't think of orz;;

and the degree to which women are objectified in the show makes me feel uneasy

Watch Seikon no Qwaser.

Re-watch Bakemonogatari.

Compare.

Just because Show A does it worse than Show B doesn't mean Show B should be excused.

You missed my point. If Bakemonogatari was indeed objectifying women to the extent where it would be genuinely a concern, then it would be like Seikon no Qwaser, because that is what the Seikon no Qwaser anime did. ...Granted, it was so bad it was good, and I never stopped laughing at it constantly, since was like a really good parody, but still.

Bakemonogatari is not in the least bit ~*oppressive*~ or propaganda that males should lock their wives in kitchens because they can't walk out of the house without getting assailed by anthropomorphic personifications of supernatural myths.

~~Shit, could I have made any MORE typos?~~

I would say that the objectification of people in any degree is almost always problematic? D:

Bakemonogatari is not in the least bit ~*oppressive*~ or propaganda that males should lock their wives in kitchens because they can't walk out of the house without getting assailed by anthropomorphic personifications of supernatural myths.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that - that's a little extreme - but there are implications in the show that I'm not fully comfortable with. (Women need men to save them - highlighted by the fact that, well, Senjougahara told Araragi that one of the things she liked about him is that he jumps in all the time to save her, despite the fact that she kind of saved him just as much as he saved her, as far as I can remember. Also underscored by the fact that all the female characters needed saving.)

I would say that the objectification of people in any degree is almost always problematic? D:

It's what makes the porn industry their money, so idk.

Women need men to save them - highlighted by the fact that, well, Senjougahara told Araragi that one of the things she liked about him is that he jumps in all the time to save her,

That's because, in Japanese society, they're huge on the whole MY BUSINESS IS MINE SO YOU CAN FUCK OFF, and Rararagi-san's habit of butting in to help is frowned upon in general but something she personally likes about him.

Or that's how I interpreted it!

Also underscored by the fact that all the female characters needed saving.)

Arararagi-san's the main character, as well as having the "resources" of Oshino's help, so of course he's gonna save them all. Aryaryagi-san's character is centered around the fact he's a busybody who's trying to help everyone he meets, and the people he meets just happen to be female. It'd make a shit story if Kanbaru was following him and she had absolutely nothing wrong, considering that's an entire arc of character development they just wasted. ~~And Senjougahara is the one that saves her, anyway, because Araryagi-san was busy getting strangled with his play-dough intestines.~~

If I'm 100% honest, AND I ALWAYS AM ;D, I don't see why the gender was brought up at all. I don't focus on it, I just focus on the quality of the characters, their personal dilemmas and the way the story progresses to solve their problems in a way that doesn't open up a corner store of dimensional plot warpholes.

Oh, yeah, definitely! I agree with that all over the place. I realize now that my comment was kind of unclear. I actually view, um, pretty much everything I watch from a position of feminist critique. Let me tell you all about which series I like do and do not pass the Bechdel test. B[

What I meant- and what I thought OP was referring to?- is the line between a feminist critique of a series and hiding behind the veil of feminism to shit on female characters for not living up to the impossible standards set for them. It just seems that people use it as the new justification to hate on women in fiction now that fandom is becoming a space more defined by activism and analysis and you can no longer just say "bitch gets in the way of my yaoi pairing".

The more I began to care and educate myself about feminism, the more I began to like female characters in fiction even if I become increasingly frustrated with the creative minds behind these women. I'm always a little suspicious of the people in fandom who seem to have the opposite experience.

Critisizing how an author handles a female character is one thing.

Calling the character a slut/moe shit/fat/weak/an insult to feminism/whatever (usually because of pairing shit or personal preferences, not because they actually give a damn about feminism) is another. The latter is very common in the Naruto fandom :/

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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