fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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I think this is my issue as well. The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

I told my friend when we watched River in season 5, "Remember how i sad I kinda Hate Hate Hate River? I _Love_ River." There are still moments when she irks me, but i like her a lot better the more we get to know her.

The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

Thing is, this is how Mickey related to the Doctor in the beginning. He just came out of nowhere and took his place. With River there, we have to take a good look at how the Doctor has just waltzed into other people's lives and turned it topsy turvy. That's why I love her.

You have very rational reasons for liking her. I will not argue.

I have very irrational reasons for hating her on odd Tuesdays and whenever I think she's looked at me funny.

I'm impossible like that. (At least I admit it?)

I have very irrational reasons for hating her on odd Tuesdays and whenever I think she's looked at me funny.

This made me giggle :)

Thank you.

It is a sadly apt description of my love-hate relationship with River.

How do I put this...

... that's life! In real life, we're expected to pass judgement on people very shortly after we meet them. Which is often what people do in the show when The Doctor shows up, for better or worse. In television, characters often start as less developed and grow over time as we adjust to them.

That's not to say they're doing it wrong, just that this is a rather unconventional way of introducing a new character to the audience, and one that many people will have trouble accepting. Flash judgements are like that, though - they're not absolute, but they do usually take a while to change.

In television, characters often start as less developed and grow over time as we adjust to them.

Well then I really don't understand why everyone is having such issues with River. Yes, she's developing slowly but that's a part of the plot. The Doctor has to live his timeline just like everyone else; it's the one thing even he can't jump to the end of. So of course River's development is gonna be long and tedious. We're experiencing it from his point of view when all he wants to know is what the hell is going on lol.

Flash judgements are like that, though - they're not absolute, but they do usually take a while to change.

I know. I'm just trying to remind people that they should be open to that change and not just make a decision and stubbornly stand by it so much that every time River is on screen, all they can think of is how much they want her to just go away. If they think like that, no matter how great she turns out to be in the end, they'll never really get the full experience.

So of course River's development is gonna be long and tedious. We're experiencing it from his point of view when all he wants to know is what the hell is going on lol.

Yeah, but this is exactly why it's frustrating to some people the same way it used to frustrate the Doctor (lately he doesn't seem to give a fuck, lol). Just because we can understand why something might be written a certain way doesn't mean we necessarily like it. I get that Moffat things the Doctor and River's backwards/sideways/"timey wimey" relationship is super clever; I personally find it kind of off-putting because I find the storyline tiresome (too many teasers, too few answers, though apparently answers are finally coming) and also because I don't really like the idea that neither of them really have a choice about being in this relationship. I like River as a character, but I don't really like her storyline.

But she's not developing slowly! That's not the way Moffat does anything, really - he has his characters fully mapped and developed from page 1 and they act like fully developed, rounded characters. (Kudos to the actors, by the way!) River came to us in The Library with all of her quirks and attitude and badassery that makes her River, and I personally accepted it because she was just there for the one episode. But when she became a recurring character in the next season, I think I was a little overwhelmed by too much River too quickly. I mean, this sudden arrival of a fully developed character that seems to bother people with River is the same thing the Doctor does every time he regenerates, sure, which is why it feels like the ones that stay longer have the most dedicated fans - because when we are faced with so much personality in the TV shows with almost no time to adjust, it's off-putting. And I honestly believe this is one of the reasons why whenever The Doctor regens, a lot of fans have this period of "not sure if want" - the show has built up a loyalty and trust that most of the fans have faith enough to believe that the new Doctor will be a good character, but they also tend to think that it's gonna be hard for this new actor to top the last. Yes, this is also due to the attachment we make with the past actor, but there must be some element of feeling overwhelmed.

So, I'm not complaining that River's developing too slow. I submit that the opposite is true - River's character has been too heavily developed, and we haven't seen any of the backstory that makes her who she is. Amy showed up pretty distinct and heavily developed, too, but we got a sense of her whole life pretty early on, so it made it easier for us to see how she became the girl she is, which made it easier for a lot of us to accept. We actually got a similar backstory coverage on Rose, too, when she was first there. No, we didn't get the details of her past life, but we got the explanation of a mundane ordinary monotonous life, which is easy enough for most viewers to relate to that they don't need the details.

And yes, that's true, if all we think every time we see River is "UGH THAT SKANK HO BITCH I WISH SHE'D JUST GO DIE" then... yeah, we'll never be able to enjoy her no matter what. But if we spend our time thinking "I wish I knew more about her life," and "I can't wait to see how she changes because I'd like to like her, but I really can't make myself appreciate the character so far," then I call that a fair compromise and think the rest is up to her and Moffat.

Uhmmm, okay, I think I'm out of rant for now.

River came to us in The Library with all of her quirks and attitude and badassery that makes her River, and I personally accepted it because she was just there for the one episode. But when she became a recurring character in the next season, I think I was a little overwhelmed by too much River too quickly.

The fact that she's from the Doctor's future makes me OK with this. Because the Doctor is supposed to be overwhelmed. She's lived all these things with a future version of him and it's a lot to take in meeting her when he hasn't grown into "himself" (the one she's obviously used to being with and who's used to being with her) yet. So now the Doctor has to play catch up and I think that really comes through. I guess I'm just more willing to play along at slow pace than most.

But if we spend our time thinking "I wish I knew more about her life," and "I can't wait to see how she changes because I'd like to like her, but I really can't make myself appreciate the character so far," then I call that a fair compromise and think the rest is up to her and Moffat.

This is what I feel like a lot of people who complain so vehemently about her aren't doing. The River haters (the haters, not just the frustrated fans like you) aren't saying "Im excited to see what happens." They're saying "OMFG I WANNA KNOW NOW! WHAT'S WITH ALL THIS 'SPOILERS' BS! HAAAATE!" And yea...that's just silly.

I have a lot of issues with River's storyline, though fewer with River herself as we go along and she gets fleshed out. I didn't like her in the Library episodes, warmed up to her consistently until she was probably my favourite part of The Impossible Astronaut. But I think introducing her backwards makes it hard to connect with her initially for a lot of people, just because we don't get to see her start out the way we do with other companions. And unlike the other companions, we don't see her "earn" her importance, she just shows up and tells us about it and we have to work backwards.

The "spoilers" bit in the Library episodes felt very much like someone going "I know something you don't know!" and I hate that in real life, so I did not enjoy it on television. The problem also in s4 was that we didn't really know for certain when/if we'd see her again and get her storyline wrapped up, so I just couldn't be bothered wiht the whole thing. I think it would have worked better if Moffat had just waited and introduced her in s5.

I agree with most of this, and still can't enjoy her in the Library episodes, even knowing what I know now. Seeing her in the most recent episode certainly made me see that Moffat has a very clear understanding of the character. In his head, he has gone through all the getting to know you steps, which makes him understandably more fond of her than many of us are.

But while I think it didn't help to introduce her in the middle of a season that had promised the return of Rose, I don't think her introduction would have come off much better no mater where she was introduced.

I think Moffat has a pretty clear idea in his head, but I'm still waiting for evidence that he's actually plotted out their timelines completely. "Going backwards" is too simple, it doesn't answer it. If they were only going backwards there would be no need for diaries, because tehy'd never be on the same page (literally, har har). I've been meaning to rewatch the Library episodes, but I do think even now that I like River she'd ruffle my feathers a bit for being kind of dismissive of Ten (who is my favourite, so my feathers get ruffled kind of easily in that regard).

I think if Moffat had waited, he would have at very least had the advantage of knowing who was actually going to play "her" Doctor, lol. I feel bad for River because now that I like her it seems like a shame that her last episodes are doomed to never really make that much sense -- I don't buy that Ten looks drastically younger than Eleven, not only because David Tennant is much older but also because Ten was very sad by s4 in a way that Eleven has never been thusfar. Plus, she seems to think Ten was at the Byzantium with her when we know for a fact that was Eleven. If Moffat had waited, he a) wouldn't have been introducing her in the midst of the Rose and Donna drama that was the focus of the season, and b) would have been able to give her an episode with better continuity.

Yeah, I've never taken it as literally going backwards, because if it was, we would have already seen him give her the sonic screwdriver. I understand what you mean about her being dismissive of the Doctor, though. That's always been a pet peeve of mine. I had trouble liking Romana at first for this same reason, as well as with River, even though Ten is not my favorite.

You make some very good points about waiting. Given that we don't see River again with Ten, she can't have met him before, therefore she must recognize him from a cheat sheet the doctor gave her. So why wouldn't she know that he was younger than "her" doctor and therefore assume that nothing in her journal had happened to him yet? However, I almost wonder (and I'm a latecomer to the fandom, so feel free to correct me if you know better than I) if Moffat didn't know yet that a) Tennant would be leaving soon and b) he would be taking over soon, and so was expecting to be able to do a few more Ten story lines with her.

I will admit that most days I forget that Smith is the youngest doctor yet. I feel he comes off much older and more crotchety, where Tennant occasionally came off like a puppy. I will also admit to occasionally pining after the might-have-been of Kate Winslet!River (though I have nothing against the actress we got)

Given that we don't see River again with Ten, she can't have met him before, therefore she must recognize him from a cheat sheet the doctor gave her. So why wouldn't she know that he was younger than "her" doctor and therefore assume that nothing in her journal had happened to him yet?

I'd need to rewatch S4, but I assumed that Ten and River met perhaps once or twice off-screen before he regenerated, but (obvs) after Silence in the Library. I get the impression that they would've met not long after the ending of S4, if I remember River's reaction to Donna correctly, as I don't think it's something that Eleven would necessarily discuss.

As a result, River would know Ten, but not one as young as the Ten she later-in-her-timeline meets in Silence in the Library -- and events that occur at the end of S4, I suppose, would account for her comment regarding his 'eyes' looking older. Or whatever it was.

I don't like this explanation though. It's lazy on Moffat's part to just assume that they had adventures offscreen even though he's never mentioned them again and we've never seen them. I also find it pretty out of character for Ten to track her down, and anyway some deleted dialogue in the Angels episode implies that they directly follow the Library episodes for the Doctor.

Yeah, the dismissive thing -- I am not sure if that's really the word I mean, but basically just the way she spends most of the episodes being like 'ugh, you are not as good as my Doctor". Which is understandable, from her POV, but as someone who does like Ten, and especially in s4 when we didn't know anything about ~her~ Doctor, it was kind of like "girlllll".

LOL RIGHT? Even if she knew he was youngest then why did she assume they'd done stuff? It doesn't make any sense. The screwdriver she has never existed, unless we later see Eleven make one specifically for her, because Ten's screwdriver never had red settings and stuff.

So why wouldn't she know that he was younger than "her" doctor and therefore assume that nothing in her journal had happened to him yet?
I think Moffat would have known he was taking over, but probably not that David Tennant was leaving. (It was definitely before that was announced officially, but I'm not sure when TPTB knew.) I also am pretty sure I've heard that Moffat was intending to cast someone older as Eleven, and just ended up being super impressed by Matt Smith, so he probably may have assumed it was safe to say that Eleven would be older than David Tennant.

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chibisaturn.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 13:04 (UTC) - Expand

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http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/ - 2011-05-05 21:50 (UTC) - Expand

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chibisaturn.livejournal.com - 2011-05-06 03:52 (UTC) - Expand

I felt this way as well. Like in season 4, we were supposed to accept her as this great, all-knowing, eventual love interest of the Doctor when we still had a bunch of Rose and Donna drama going on that was the main focus of the season. But then in season five, we actually start getting to know her and now she's an actual character instead of a mystery woman who just says "spoilers" a lot.

Exactly. Even now, as much as I love River, I'm not quite on board with the whole true love thing, but I find the character much more enjoyable. And I will admit to enjoying the flirting, even if had me flailing as much as it did the Doctor.

I'm hoping the mid-season reveal of whatever she did to go to prison will be actually live up to Moffat's hype and end up affecting the relationship that the Doctor and River have right now because that would be awesome to see and add another layer to their growing relationship.

And yeah, hardcore Doctor/Rose shipper here, but that part had me flailing as well and now I can honesty say I ship both.

I'm kind of hoping for an epic twist in the reveal. Not any specific one, just something. Baring that, yes, it had better live up to the hype.

I haven't been able to get on board with the Doctor/river shipping. I'm usually pretty easy going as far as ships go, but I have a hard time finding Eleven fic because so much of it's Eleven/River or Eleven/Amy, and I have so much do-not-want for those pairings. Although, thanks to a comment on here a few days ago, I have a sudden hankering for Canton/Doctor.

Yeah, an unexpected twist would be nice.

As for the shipping, time_and_chips has a lot of Eleven/Rose (http://time-and-chips.livejournal.com/tag/eleventh%20doctor) stuff, but that's because they're a Doctor/Rose community. (And then if I can promote myself, I wrote a small three part (http://aws-fic.livejournal.com/1071.html) fic (http://aws-fic.livejournal.com/1367.html) that has 11/Amy/Rory running into 10/Rose and tries to follow canon as much as possible.) But yeah, other than that, Eleven/River, and Eleven/Amy (plus a tiny amount of Eleven/Rory) there isn't much else. (http://aws-fic.livejournal.com/810.html) ()

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chibisaturn.livejournal.com - 2011-05-05 02:55 (UTC) - Expand

Absolutely, introducing her right before Rose was always going to rile some people up. I mean, there's always going to be people who instinctively dislike a new ship because it messes with their old ship, but since Ten/Rose was a big aspect of s4, throwing River in there immediately before Rose's return was a bit messy IMO. Also, it seems like he wrote the episode with the assumption that River would get to spend more time with Ten, and when that didn't happen it's not like he can really go back and change that, so now we're left wondering why River has a version of Ten's screwdriver, why River thought Ten was at the Byzantium, and how anyone could think Ten looks younger than Eleven.

"Messy" is a really good way to put it.

Moffat probably got the idea that he'd use all his future one-story-per-season-under-RTD episodes to reintroduce River over and over (including the Byzantium), but then Tennant decided to leave, RTD followed, and the rest is... well, history.

As for Ten looking younger than Eleven, I always assumed she meant it as sort of a eyes-are-the-windows-to-the-soul thing. Like reading his age from his expressions and stuff and coming to the conclusion that he was much younger because the events of Journey's End, End of Time, etc hadn't happened yet. Of course, you could be right in Moffat thinking Eleven's actor would be older; we were all pretty much in shock when Matt Smith was cast. Oh the Patterson Joseph fans...

I think -- could be wrong with my timelines, but I think -- that Moffat would have known he was the up and coming showrunner, but not that David Tennant was necessarily leaving. So I guess it was kind of a gamble, but not one that worked out for them.

Yeahhh, but I guess I don't really feel like we ever see JE, EOT etc reflected in Eleven. They keep saying s6 will be much darker and maybe it will be, but Eleven in s5 is generally a pretty chipper dude. But yeah I do think it is also partially casting confusion lol.

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