[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I loved Rose -- I loved the development of her relationship with the Doctor, and I loved her as a person.

I find River Song to be frankly obnoxious, annoying, and awful to listen to. I think her entire presence in the series is overbearing and unnecessary. And I hate the way her story is presented. Further, I hate the way she twists other characters -- Moffat writes the Doctor as excusing in River things that he didn't excuse in Rose or anybody else (using guns, for instance-- he didn't like it when Rose did, but with River it's "sexy" and he "likes it"?? Uhhh..). He basically twists everything up around River Song in a way that I find really... stupid, frankly, and horribly done, and it only makes me dislike River Song more.

Oops, I guess the secret OP must be judging me now! OH THE HORRORS, how ever shall I survive?

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Further, I hate the way she twists other characters -- Moffat writes the Doctor as excusing in River things that he didn't excuse in Rose or anybody else (using guns, for instance-- he didn't like it when Rose did, but with River it's "sexy" and he "likes it"?? Uhhh..)

Well as many people have pointed out, Ten was the only one with an issue with guns. Nine was pretty OK with them (he was about to blast that Dalek himself).

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

It still irks me. And it irks me more that it's specifically made out that he finds her using a gun "sexy" and whatnot... if only because I just don't feel like that's something the Doctor would think/feel. I loathe, loathe Moffat's "sexualized Doctor" anyway, though. Romantic, fine, whatever, but sexual, no, I just can't.

It also isn't the only way River twists the characters and story. And can I list the number of different ways her magically knowing how to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor is obnoxious, ridiculous, stupid, and annoys the hell out of me? Because I seriously want to throw things at my computer screen every time she pulls that crap.

The thing is.. as someone pointed out above, you know, some people consider Rose a Mary Sue, but her relationship with the Doctor was developed, and she had clear and obvious flaws -- she wasn't perfect, she couldn't do everything! But oh, River Song... she is, in my opinion, a Sue. She can pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor! She's an ace shot! She's so dangerous Daleks fear her! She can escape anything, manipulate anyone! She has a sonic screwdriver too (and the Doctor gave it to her)! Everyone likes her as soon as they meet her! She's got a "tragic" and mysterious past! Oh, and she's the Doctor's wife and constantly calls him "sweetie". All despite her abysmal and obnoxious personality. Yeah, I'd call that a Sue, IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair, pretty much everyone who knows anything about TARDISes knows how to pilot them better than the Doctor does. The Doctor is a really amazingly terrible pilot. Canonically, and not just in New Who or the Moffat era.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Except we're given NO REASON why River Song should know more about TARDISes than the Doctor. She's not -- that we know -- a Time Lord. She's certainly got less experience with them than the Doctor. So it's INCREDIBLY annoying and obnoxious when she waltzes in with no explanation for why or how she knows any of this and does "better" than the Doctor.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

According to the BBC (I can't remember the source, but it was something from a journal I think?), future!Amy is going to teach River how to fly the TARDIS. Which is another reason I'm voting for Amy being River's mother.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

...that makes even less sense than the Doctor teaching her. And that takes effort. What the hell.

I don't want Amy to be River's mother, if only because I think it's silly, but idgaf as long as she's not actually the Doctor's wife or whatever.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

And can I list the number of different ways her magically knowing how to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor is obnoxious, ridiculous, stupid, and annoys the hell out of me? Because I seriously want to throw things at my computer screen every time she pulls that crap.

She learned it from a future Doctor...a Doctor that we can assume has learned more about the TARDIS over time. So it's not really that annoying. It's like someone from your future who you taught to drive going back in time to when you first started out and driving your new car perfectly. You taught them in the future so you can't really be mad at them for knowing.

Everyone likes her as soon as they meet her! She's got a "tragic" and mysterious past! Oh, and she's the Doctor's wife and constantly calls him "sweetie". All despite her abysmal and obnoxious personality. Yeah, I'd call that a Sue, IMO.

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

It is really annoying, actually. Regardless of what he may or may not have taught her in the future, the fact that she uses it the way she does -- in a ridiculously obnoxious fashion -- in the present is annoying as hell. I think I'm allowed to be annoyed by things even if there's an explanation for them, especially as explanation =/= excuse.

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

Not everyone likes the Doctor as soon as they meet him, and he doesn't hold shit over our (the viewers') heads like she does. And, um, he doesn't have an obnoxious and horrible personality. Also, you skipped all the exclusive-to-River horrible and annoying stuff I also mentioned.

Also, IMO, judging a companion the same way one judges the Doctor in terms of Sue-dom is a flawed method. The Doctor is kind of a Sue -- he's the main character, he kind of has to be, and he's developed in a certain way over decades. Companions have to be judged on a different level -- in particular, how they relate to the Doctor and the story at large. Hence, the Doctor isn't a Sue for having these traits because he's the Doctor (and before anyone says it, I mean the character's role in the story, not because he's a man and River's not or some shit). However, some strange new character coming out of effing nowhere with all those superpowered traits, that the story immediately wraps around, who has the love adoration and attention of the current cast right away, whom we're treated as though we should automatically enjoy and love with no reason to do so? Yeah, that's a Sue.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

I think I'm allowed to be annoyed by things even if there's an explanation for them, especially as explanation =/= excuse.

Well you can be annoyed at her being obnoxious. But the fact that she has the knowledge isn't really a reason to dislike her since the Doctor taught her. It's a legitimate reason for her knowing lol.

Companions have to be judged on a different level -- in particular, how they relate to the Doctor and the story at large.

We don't know River's story. Hence the frustration. As I've said before, we're seeing her the way everyone does when they first meet him. Only difference is that we literally can't know more until the Doctor learns more and she can't just tell him because it's his future too. So how she got all the traits and the badassery is something we have to wait to find out. She's only called a Sue because we don't know her well yet. If it turns out that there's nothing legit in her future to account for everything we've seen, then the title of Sue will be a reasonable one to assign.

IDK being annoyed and frustrated I can understand. Slapping on the label of Sue before the story is over just boggles my mind.

[mfirefly10.livejournal.com]

You just described the Doctor almost completely (except for the "Sweetie" and wife part).

First, 'Mary Sue' is a term that should be stricken from fandom because 99% of the time, it's just used as another way bash female characters. That being said, there will NEVER be a bigger 'Mary Sue' in DW than the Doctor himself.

[(Anonymous)]

...He's the main character, of course he's more awesome than anyone else.

I don't understand why, whenever an OC (which River is in this discussion) is accused of being a Mary-Sue, someone always runs in to say that the main character is a bigger Sue. The main character is meant to be special, the best thing ever just because he or she is the main character.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Word. On all accounts lol.

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

First, 'Mary Sue' is a term that should be stricken from fandom because 99% of the time, it's just used as another way bash female characters.

I can't quite agree with this, but I do think that it should be used extremely sparingly when discussing canon characters. I do agree, though, that when used on canon characters it is overwhelmingly used on women who would not have been called that had they simply been male.

I'm afraid I've just read too many bad fanfic/rp character applications to dismiss the term entirely, though.

[(Anonymous)]

...When the hell was she confirmed as his wife? Because, as far as I've seen, it's just fan theory. All we know is she's married, and is a Companion. She's not necessarily married to him.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between, "I'm ok with people using guns", and, "Oh, yeah, baby, tell me now many aliens you're gonna kill for me!"

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Well this Doctor is very different from Ten as we've seen. And it's apparent he gets off on River being a gun-toting badass lol. As annoying as that may be, to each (Doctor) his own.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Except he specifically states that it would normally bother him.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

He says he's "not supposed to be OK with it." I took that as "I shouldn't mind people being shot," not as "GUNS ARE THE DEVIL" the way Ten felt.

I see Eleven as so different from Ten and I can accept that while he may not use a gun himself, he doesn't mind others using them.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Ten was the only one with an issue with guns.

Actually, Eleven states (paraphrased): "[River]'s got a gun, and unlike me, she's not afraid to shoot. Usually (normally?) that would bother me..."

Oh, and I'm not sure how familiar you are with Old School Who, but some of the previous Docs have disliked the use of guns.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Well there's a difference between having issues with gun, per se (which was Ten) and having an issue using a gun yourself, which I think is more Eleven. The fact that it's not a constant Doctor thing (as some avid Old Who-ers have pointed out) makes being OK with someone else using a gun something that doesn't bother me about Eleven.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

having an issue using a gun yourself

He wasn't talking about himself. He was saying other people using guns usually bothers him. Seriously, look at the sentence structre:

"She's not afraid to shoot. Usually that would bother me..."

"That" refers to her shooting a gun. Not him, her. He is usually bothered by other people using guns.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

He says "I shouldn't like that."

That's why I took it to mean what I did.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Oh,God, the flirting over how many Silents she could kill? No WAY IN HELL would anyone else be treated like that.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Seriously, that pissed me off SO. MUCH. But River is ~perfect~ and nothing she does is ever wrong, so obviously it's okay that she kills all the time, whatever she wants to, whenever she wants to. I'm sure the reaction would have been just the same if it had been Rory or Rose or Martha doing all that killing, right? ...right?!