[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fenm.livejournal.com]

That's nonsense. Rose was developed the way most companions are, River showed up and we were supposed to accept her as awesome before she did anything awesome. Plus, she has this sooper sekrit relationship with The Doctor, as opposed to Rose's which, again, developed throughout her appearance in the series. So to say you have to like or hate both of them is nonsense, since they're different characters. And even things like, "they're The Doctor's love interests" doesn't work, since their "love interest" status was developed in two different ways.

And I say this as someone who doesn't like either of them much, for different reasons.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

River showed up and we were supposed to accept her as awesome before she did anything awesome.

Ahem...this is how most (non-companion) people in Who-verse view the Doctor. "Midnight" is a prime example.

Jussayin'

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

Yeah, and like in Midnight, many non-companion people in the Whoniverse find the Doctor annoying as hell, right?

For the record I like River more and more the more we see her. But I do think introducing a character the way she as introduced is risky because it can alienate the viewers. With the Doctor I feel like I'm in on the joke, so to speak; with River, especially in the Library episodes, I felt like she was laughing at me as well as the Doctor, and I found that deeply annoying.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

With the Doctor I feel like I'm in on the joke, so to speak; with River, especially in the Library episodes, I felt like she was laughing at me as well as the Doctor, and I found that deeply annoying.

I feel like River is a character that's supposed to make you take a hard look at the Doctor. And that's why I love her. Because she made me really look at the Doctor and what type of relationship he has to "normal" people (everyone that doesn't travel in the TARDIS). And I just love seeing the Doctor being forced to relate to the normal people and not know shit. It's quite amusing lol.

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

I think this is my issue as well. The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

I told my friend when we watched River in season 5, "Remember how i sad I kinda Hate Hate Hate River? I _Love_ River." There are still moments when she irks me, but i like her a lot better the more we get to know her.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

Thing is, this is how Mickey related to the Doctor in the beginning. He just came out of nowhere and took his place. With River there, we have to take a good look at how the Doctor has just waltzed into other people's lives and turned it topsy turvy. That's why I love her.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I have a lot of issues with River's storyline, though fewer with River herself as we go along and she gets fleshed out. I didn't like her in the Library episodes, warmed up to her consistently until she was probably my favourite part of The Impossible Astronaut. But I think introducing her backwards makes it hard to connect with her initially for a lot of people, just because we don't get to see her start out the way we do with other companions. And unlike the other companions, we don't see her "earn" her importance, she just shows up and tells us about it and we have to work backwards.

The "spoilers" bit in the Library episodes felt very much like someone going "I know something you don't know!" and I hate that in real life, so I did not enjoy it on television. The problem also in s4 was that we didn't really know for certain when/if we'd see her again and get her storyline wrapped up, so I just couldn't be bothered wiht the whole thing. I think it would have worked better if Moffat had just waited and introduced her in s5.

[othellia.livejournal.com]

I felt this way as well. Like in season 4, we were supposed to accept her as this great, all-knowing, eventual love interest of the Doctor when we still had a bunch of Rose and Donna drama going on that was the main focus of the season. But then in season five, we actually start getting to know her and now she's an actual character instead of a mystery woman who just says "spoilers" a lot.

[(Anonymous)]

I do think introducing a character the way she as introduced is risky because it can alienate the viewers.

Only if they're a woman. Otherwise that ~smug~ attitude would be ~snarky and cute.~

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

This is, alas, also true. I would like to imagine that it is mostly, as _thirty2flavors was saying, a mater of perspective, of not beign in on the joke, and I still think that, in fandom, it's 50% that. Unfortunately, I think it's probably also a bit of what you're saying, combined with the "in the way of my pairing" reaction.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I am sure in some cases, and especially as we see more of River, that is part of it.

[tenonthedot.livejournal.com]

I like what you're saying. I hate characters who are introduced as SUPER SPECIAL RAINBOW AMAZING and we're expected to love them straight away. Character have to earn my love, so I ended up liking her more now.

[(Anonymous)]

We're not living in the Who-verse, though, and I bet that even if we were, there'd be many, many people who'd think he's annoying/too perfect/unlikable etc. I sure as hell would hate his mysterious ways.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

That's exactly my point. The Doctor is finally being forced to live like a "normal" person and not be the one who knows everything. In River, we're getting a chance to see the Doctor the way the rest of Who-verse (non-companion) does. And that's why she frustrates so many people. And that's why I love her lol.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

"Midnight"? Really? You mean the episode where strangers almost killed The Doctor, partially because of how arrogant he'd been acting? Besides, we, the audience, know The Doctor. So other people finding him awesome isn't a stretch. As thirty2flavors says, with him, we're in the joke. OTOH, River's this random lady who showed up and starts shouting "Spoilers!" and we were supposed to be completely taken with someone we barely knew, and who had yet to earn it.

It's like your comparing River to The Master argument up above, really. The character's been around since the 70's. We've seen the stuff he can do. So him getting a season that revolves around him is understandable; he's been around longer than any single DW character except The Doctor, The TARDIS, and The Brigadier. Oh, and I'd like to point out that in that season that you say "revolved" around him (I'm assuming you mean the one that ended with "Last of the Time Lords"?) he was actually only in three episodes--two if you count Simm!Master.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

"Midnight"? Really? You mean the episode where strangers almost killed The Doctor, partially because of how arrogant he'd been acting? Besides, we, the audience, know The Doctor. So other people finding him awesome isn't a stretch. As thirty2flavors says, with him, we're in the joke. OTOH, River's this random lady who showed up and starts shouting "Spoilers!" and we were supposed to be completely taken with someone we barely knew, and who had yet to earn it.

This is my point lol. Maybe I didn't articulate it well. My point is that they were pissed at him for being so arrogant when they didn't even know where the fuck he came from and there he is judging them and ordering them around. Just like they weren't "in on the joke" with the Doctor, we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her. River is what everyone else sees when they look at the Doctor. Her presence really makes us think about the things that we let the Doctor get away with (all the secrets, etc) just because we know him. So being annoyed with her makes sense but when you look at the bigger picture, it's actually quite amusing to see the Doctor having to be a "normal" person that's out of the loop.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that in that season that you say "revolved" around him (I'm assuming you mean the one that ended with "Last of the Time Lords"?) he was actually only in three episodes--two if you count Simm!Master.

What I meant was simply that River (and her secrets) is a major plot point this season, just as the Master was for those episodes. Moff has said so many times. So the season being saturated with her makes sense. I wasn't trying to compare them based on time on DW, just as major plot points.

[runonmoonlight.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the part where we're /supposed/ to love River right away. Maybe he wanted people to be all 'wtf' and then have her grow on you. There's a character in Farscape, Jool - who is the most annoying character ever at first, but then she grows and develops and then you hate her less and less and then you like her and then you end up being all "NO DON'T LEAVE JOOL!". So you follow the same emotional arc as the characters in the show. So maybe we're supposed to be following the Doctors emotional journey on this one, where he starts off all 'wtf' and so does not trust her - but it all grows and we get to take that journey with him.

Then again I'm the one sitting here not getting the absolute hard on for Amy everyone has, I don't dislike her at all - I do like her, there's definitely some cool stuff going on and she works with Eleven. But I'm not seeing the 'super special awesome' that a lot of other people seem to be seeing.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I loved Rose -- I loved the development of her relationship with the Doctor, and I loved her as a person.

I find River Song to be frankly obnoxious, annoying, and awful to listen to. I think her entire presence in the series is overbearing and unnecessary. And I hate the way her story is presented. Further, I hate the way she twists other characters -- Moffat writes the Doctor as excusing in River things that he didn't excuse in Rose or anybody else (using guns, for instance-- he didn't like it when Rose did, but with River it's "sexy" and he "likes it"?? Uhhh..). He basically twists everything up around River Song in a way that I find really... stupid, frankly, and horribly done, and it only makes me dislike River Song more.

Oops, I guess the secret OP must be judging me now! OH THE HORRORS, how ever shall I survive?

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

Further, I hate the way she twists other characters -- Moffat writes the Doctor as excusing in River things that he didn't excuse in Rose or anybody else (using guns, for instance-- he didn't like it when Rose did, but with River it's "sexy" and he "likes it"?? Uhhh..)

Well as many people have pointed out, Ten was the only one with an issue with guns. Nine was pretty OK with them (he was about to blast that Dalek himself).

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

It still irks me. And it irks me more that it's specifically made out that he finds her using a gun "sexy" and whatnot... if only because I just don't feel like that's something the Doctor would think/feel. I loathe, loathe Moffat's "sexualized Doctor" anyway, though. Romantic, fine, whatever, but sexual, no, I just can't.

It also isn't the only way River twists the characters and story. And can I list the number of different ways her magically knowing how to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor is obnoxious, ridiculous, stupid, and annoys the hell out of me? Because I seriously want to throw things at my computer screen every time she pulls that crap.

The thing is.. as someone pointed out above, you know, some people consider Rose a Mary Sue, but her relationship with the Doctor was developed, and she had clear and obvious flaws -- she wasn't perfect, she couldn't do everything! But oh, River Song... she is, in my opinion, a Sue. She can pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor! She's an ace shot! She's so dangerous Daleks fear her! She can escape anything, manipulate anyone! She has a sonic screwdriver too (and the Doctor gave it to her)! Everyone likes her as soon as they meet her! She's got a "tragic" and mysterious past! Oh, and she's the Doctor's wife and constantly calls him "sweetie". All despite her abysmal and obnoxious personality. Yeah, I'd call that a Sue, IMO.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

There's a difference between, "I'm ok with people using guns", and, "Oh, yeah, baby, tell me now many aliens you're gonna kill for me!"

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Ten was the only one with an issue with guns.

Actually, Eleven states (paraphrased): "[River]'s got a gun, and unlike me, she's not afraid to shoot. Usually (normally?) that would bother me..."

Oh, and I'm not sure how familiar you are with Old School Who, but some of the previous Docs have disliked the use of guns.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

Oh,God, the flirting over how many Silents she could kill? No WAY IN HELL would anyone else be treated like that.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

Seriously, that pissed me off SO. MUCH. But River is ~perfect~ and nothing she does is ever wrong, so obviously it's okay that she kills all the time, whatever she wants to, whenever she wants to. I'm sure the reaction would have been just the same if it had been Rory or Rose or Martha doing all that killing, right? ...right?!

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

awesome comment.