fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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"Midnight"? Really? You mean the episode where strangers almost killed The Doctor, partially because of how arrogant he'd been acting? Besides, we, the audience, know The Doctor. So other people finding him awesome isn't a stretch. As thirty2flavors says, with him, we're in the joke. OTOH, River's this random lady who showed up and starts shouting "Spoilers!" and we were supposed to be completely taken with someone we barely knew, and who had yet to earn it.

This is my point lol. Maybe I didn't articulate it well. My point is that they were pissed at him for being so arrogant when they didn't even know where the fuck he came from and there he is judging them and ordering them around. Just like they weren't "in on the joke" with the Doctor, we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her. River is what everyone else sees when they look at the Doctor. Her presence really makes us think about the things that we let the Doctor get away with (all the secrets, etc) just because we know him. So being annoyed with her makes sense but when you look at the bigger picture, it's actually quite amusing to see the Doctor having to be a "normal" person that's out of the loop.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that in that season that you say "revolved" around him (I'm assuming you mean the one that ended with "Last of the Time Lords"?) he was actually only in three episodes--two if you count Simm!Master.

What I meant was simply that River (and her secrets) is a major plot point this season, just as the Master was for those episodes. Moff has said so many times. So the season being saturated with her makes sense. I wasn't trying to compare them based on time on DW, just as major plot points.

What I meant was simply that River (and her secrets) is a major plot point this season, just as the Master was for those episodes.

Except.. the Master wasn't right there the whole season, annoying the hell out of the viewers. He wasn't on the TARDIS, in your face, being obnoxious.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Moffat wouldn't know subtlety if it hit him over the head with a sledgehammer, so I'm not shocked he doesn't recognize the importance of the concept.

Wait, wait, are you trying to imply that RTD knew how to be subtle? Because that's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

+1000 this = so true and funny! Thank you anon!

He at least knew how to drop a hint without shoving it in your freaking face every ten seconds ~~unlike Moffat~~.

That's, uh, rather debatable. On both sides.

I think both of them balanced each other, and one without the other lacks something, which is why S5 is so meh and Sherlock is eh.

Well I was just referring to people being annoyed that she's in the spotlight all the time this season, not the fact that people just don't like her character. I was just saying that she's in the spotlight cuz she has to be.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Moffat wouldn't know subtlety if it hit him over the head with a sledgehammer, so I'm not shocked he doesn't recognize the importance of the concept.

LOL He's become a teller, not a show-er since he took over. It's a big part of my issues with him.

Except that she doesn't have to be; Moffat decided to make her be. And again, the Master didn't have the spotlight the entire season when he was on -- at least, not directly; he was occasionally referenced, but only the final three episodes actually featured him, and as

fenm pointed out, the Master is an established character, and so focusing on him isn't as irksome.

River, on the other hand, will be around, being obnoxious and in the viewer's faces, all season. That's a hell of a lot more spotlight than the Master ever got in series 3.

And yeah, agreed on Moffat. Oh my god I hate his storytelling, though. I can't even describe how much. I don't think the man has an original thought in his head, honestly-- everything he does is a rehash of something else! :\

Well he decided to make her that when he decided to make her such a big part of the Doctor's life. The Master wasn't possibly the Doctor's wife/baby-momma/girlfriend/someone obviously super important in his future. Just by being that, River became something bigger than the Master was in a certain way.

It's funny because he wrote my fave eps (The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances) but I have SO many issues with him now that he's taken over.

I see you are new to all the people who assume the Master was Susan's other grandfather.

Really? I've never heard that lol.

The Master was super-important in the Doctor's future by virtue of having been important in his past. River... River came out of nowhere, isn't (to our knowledge) an established character, and we're expected to care about an entire series-long story arc about her, like her, and tolerate her being in our faces for a whole series because... why? Because Moffat said so? No, thanks. I don't buy it. Moffat saying "she's really important guys YOU'LL SEE" doesn't justify making it all about her.

I loved TEC/TDD so hard. Everything else he's written for the series has been such samey crap though. Ugh. And especially now that he's showrunner. I seriously don't know if I'll keep watching the show anymore... I managed through series 5 mostly running just on the fact that I really like Eleven, but a whole series of River Song and all of Moffat's writing flaws? Might have to count me out. :\

River came out of nowhere, isn't (to our knowledge) an established character, and we're expected to care about an entire series-long story arc about her, like her, and tolerate her being in our faces for a whole series because... why? Because Moffat said so?

Um...pretty much yea. It's his show lol. You have to watch what he puts on it if you're gonna watch. Or you can not watch. (I don't even mean that in a snarky way. That's just how TV shows (that you don't write yourself) work).

Moffat saying "she's really important guys YOU'LL SEE" doesn't justify making it all about her.

This was Amy for most of season 5. And I didn't like it. I still don't lol. (Even though I'm coming around to her character)

I loved TEC/TDD so hard. Everything else he's written for the series has been such samey crap though. Ugh. And especially now that he's showrunner. I seriously don't know if I'll keep watching the show anymore... I managed through series 5 mostly running just on the fact that I really like Eleven, but a whole series of River Song and all of Moffat's writing flaws? Might have to count me out. :\

I think the big issue is that Moff is a teller and not a shower. He hammers you over the head with the importance and brilliance of characters instead of letting them show you themselves. I find it more tolerable with River because at least we know she's clever and she can wield a gun like no other and hold her own against the Doctor and aliens.

Yeah, I know it's his show, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, lol. And this goes along with what we're saying, too, about Moffat being a teller and not a shower -- I don't see any reason to give one single fuck about River Song, especially not enough to want to see a whole season of her! He hasn't given me a reason to care, whereas the Master was both a compelling villain and one with a history that made me care enough to want to see his story.

I hate Amy, so using her as an example is sooo not a good idea, lol. I can't stand her. Or Rory. ...actually, Moffat has yet to write a companion or major character I do like except for whatsisname, Mark Sheppard's character, and that might just have been because I effing love Mark Sheppard.

That is some of his issue. But it's not all of it -- my biggest problem with him is sheer lack of originality, as I mentioned. All of his plots are recycled. I mentioned to my aunt the other day, "He's trying to make every episode of Doctor Who into the same tired, cliche horror movie, and it's not working, it's not even scary, let alone a good story!" He uses the same tropes in every episode. And series 5 was basically all about him stealing elements of RTD's episodes in some horrible attempt to "one up" RTD's seasons (I did a whole writeup on this and all the things he stole, but I don't feel like going to find it). Ostensibly basing River off of The Time-Traveler's Wife, the constant re-use of the "you can't see it so it's scary" trope, the endless lineup of "creepy" small children... I think everything he does he's done before.

And that's before you even get into his views on men, women, sex and romance. UGH.

And series 5 was basically all about him stealing elements of RTD's episodes in some horrible attempt to "one up" RTD's seasons (I did a whole writeup on this and all the things he stole, but I don't feel like going to find it).

Can we just talk about how Amy started off as a shit remake of Donna? Seriously.

Oh god, SERIOUSLY. She did!

I seriously think Moffat resents the hell out of the fact that anyone else has ever written for DW, and it shows in his writing. He outright steals from and attempts to "one up" the episodes/characters/events of seasons he wasn't show-runner during, and when he was writing for DW under RTD, he sidelined and ignored the characters he didn't create (Rose, for example). And now that he is showrunner, he merrily ignores any characters, events, or history that he didn't write, as if he can just pretend this is the very first Doctor and he wouldn't have any attachments or contacts with, say, prior companions, or anything.

It's really kind of infuriating, that he's taking a show with such a rich history and boiling it down until all that's left is what he's created. It's disgusting, tbh.

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we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her.

Which is a REALLY bad way to introduce a character the writers CLEARLY want us to like. Some of us (and I include myself in this [hence, "us"]) are never going to quite get over that original annoyance, no matter what she does.

I wasn't trying to compare them based on time on DW

Except that was kinda my point: Him being around longer makes any focus on him feel more deserved. Whereas River's only been around a few years, and has been in about half-a-dozen episodes, so... why do I care enough about her that a whole season should be devoted to her storyline? Oh, right: I don't.

Some of us (and I include myself in this [hence, "us"]) are never going to quite get over that original annoyance, no matter what she does.

Yea I can see that happening. The same thing happened with Jack lol. But I love him too.

why do I care enough about her that a whole season should be devoted to her storyline?

The way she was introduced set that up. The whole "I know your name" thing. If they didn't go back to her, everyone would have been like "WTF YOU CAN'T JUST DROP THAT BOMB AND MOVE ON!"

IDK I guess I'm just perfectly fine being annoyed by her because I know that it's what she's supposed to be.

If they didn't go back to her, everyone would have been like "WTF YOU CAN'T JUST DROP THAT BOMB AND MOVE ON!"

If it meant less River, I've fine with them moving on, actually. Seriously, I'm not even kidding.
Hell, I don't think we've had an answer to what Seven meant when he said he was "more than just another Time Lord". That was over 20 years ago.

I guess I'm just perfectly fine being annoyed I know that it's what she's supposed to be.

Yeah, see, I don't think she is. I honestly think we're supposed to like her.

My point is that they were pissed at him for being so arrogant when they didn't even know where the fuck he came from and there he is judging them and ordering them around. Just like they weren't "in on the joke" with the Doctor, we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her.

I would like to point out that it doesn't really matter that there's a good intellectual reason to find her annoying, and that making a character deliberately annoying when they're supposed to be likable is crappy writing.

I mean, I can bring in a pile of scientific studies as to why the majority of humans finds Fingernails on Chalkboard to be an irritating sound, you still don't MAKE that sound and then tell people to get over their stupid instinctual response and expect them to like it.

A lot of people keep saying that they think River is supposed to be this character that everyone loves. I just don't see her that way. I think she's a character that some people will love and an equal, if not greater, number of people will really dislike.

I don't understand the part where we're /supposed/ to love River right away. Maybe he wanted people to be all 'wtf' and then have her grow on you. There's a character in Farscape, Jool - who is the most annoying character ever at first, but then she grows and develops and then you hate her less and less and then you like her and then you end up being all "NO DON'T LEAVE JOOL!". So you follow the same emotional arc as the characters in the show. So maybe we're supposed to be following the Doctors emotional journey on this one, where he starts off all 'wtf' and so does not trust her - but it all grows and we get to take that journey with him.

Then again I'm the one sitting here not getting the absolute hard on for Amy everyone has, I don't dislike her at all - I do like her, there's definitely some cool stuff going on and she works with Eleven. But I'm not seeing the 'super special awesome' that a lot of other people seem to be seeing.

then again I'm the one sitting here not getting the absolute hard on for Amy everyone has, I don't dislike her at all - I do like her, there's definitely some cool stuff going on and she works with Eleven. But I'm not seeing the 'super special awesome' that a lot of other people seem to be seeing.

I thought I was the only one and have been afraid to say it! She always seems a little too precious, a little too deliberately designed to make us AWWW or think her flaws are adorable and cheeky and not annoying or assy like everyone else. I love her, but if anyone is a Mary Sue in DW, it's Amy.

I agree with you about Jool, too.

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