[ SECRET POST #1583 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1583 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

River showed up and we were supposed to accept her as awesome before she did anything awesome.

Ahem...this is how most (non-companion) people in Who-verse view the Doctor. "Midnight" is a prime example.

Jussayin'

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

Yeah, and like in Midnight, many non-companion people in the Whoniverse find the Doctor annoying as hell, right?

For the record I like River more and more the more we see her. But I do think introducing a character the way she as introduced is risky because it can alienate the viewers. With the Doctor I feel like I'm in on the joke, so to speak; with River, especially in the Library episodes, I felt like she was laughing at me as well as the Doctor, and I found that deeply annoying.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

With the Doctor I feel like I'm in on the joke, so to speak; with River, especially in the Library episodes, I felt like she was laughing at me as well as the Doctor, and I found that deeply annoying.

I feel like River is a character that's supposed to make you take a hard look at the Doctor. And that's why I love her. Because she made me really look at the Doctor and what type of relationship he has to "normal" people (everyone that doesn't travel in the TARDIS). And I just love seeing the Doctor being forced to relate to the normal people and not know shit. It's quite amusing lol.

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

I think this is my issue as well. The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

I told my friend when we watched River in season 5, "Remember how i sad I kinda Hate Hate Hate River? I _Love_ River." There are still moments when she irks me, but i like her a lot better the more we get to know her.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

The things that irk me about River are the way she has been introduced as instantly awesome and has a place in the Doctor's life I hadn't expected anyone to fill, and at least not without a great deal of development.

Thing is, this is how Mickey related to the Doctor in the beginning. He just came out of nowhere and took his place. With River there, we have to take a good look at how the Doctor has just waltzed into other people's lives and turned it topsy turvy. That's why I love her.

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

You have very rational reasons for liking her. I will not argue.

I have very irrational reasons for hating her on odd Tuesdays and whenever I think she's looked at me funny.

I'm impossible like that. (At least I admit it?)

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

How do I put this...

... that's life! In real life, we're expected to pass judgement on people very shortly after we meet them. Which is often what people do in the show when The Doctor shows up, for better or worse. In television, characters often start as less developed and grow over time as we adjust to them.

That's not to say they're doing it wrong, just that this is a rather unconventional way of introducing a new character to the audience, and one that many people will have trouble accepting. Flash judgements are like that, though - they're not absolute, but they do usually take a while to change.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I have a lot of issues with River's storyline, though fewer with River herself as we go along and she gets fleshed out. I didn't like her in the Library episodes, warmed up to her consistently until she was probably my favourite part of The Impossible Astronaut. But I think introducing her backwards makes it hard to connect with her initially for a lot of people, just because we don't get to see her start out the way we do with other companions. And unlike the other companions, we don't see her "earn" her importance, she just shows up and tells us about it and we have to work backwards.

The "spoilers" bit in the Library episodes felt very much like someone going "I know something you don't know!" and I hate that in real life, so I did not enjoy it on television. The problem also in s4 was that we didn't really know for certain when/if we'd see her again and get her storyline wrapped up, so I just couldn't be bothered wiht the whole thing. I think it would have worked better if Moffat had just waited and introduced her in s5.

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of this, and still can't enjoy her in the Library episodes, even knowing what I know now. Seeing her in the most recent episode certainly made me see that Moffat has a very clear understanding of the character. In his head, he has gone through all the getting to know you steps, which makes him understandably more fond of her than many of us are.

But while I think it didn't help to introduce her in the middle of a season that had promised the return of Rose, I don't think her introduction would have come off much better no mater where she was introduced.

[othellia.livejournal.com]

I felt this way as well. Like in season 4, we were supposed to accept her as this great, all-knowing, eventual love interest of the Doctor when we still had a bunch of Rose and Donna drama going on that was the main focus of the season. But then in season five, we actually start getting to know her and now she's an actual character instead of a mystery woman who just says "spoilers" a lot.

[(Anonymous)]

I do think introducing a character the way she as introduced is risky because it can alienate the viewers.

Only if they're a woman. Otherwise that ~smug~ attitude would be ~snarky and cute.~

[chibisaturn.livejournal.com]

This is, alas, also true. I would like to imagine that it is mostly, as _thirty2flavors was saying, a mater of perspective, of not beign in on the joke, and I still think that, in fandom, it's 50% that. Unfortunately, I think it's probably also a bit of what you're saying, combined with the "in the way of my pairing" reaction.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

I am sure in some cases, and especially as we see more of River, that is part of it.

[tenonthedot.livejournal.com]

I like what you're saying. I hate characters who are introduced as SUPER SPECIAL RAINBOW AMAZING and we're expected to love them straight away. Character have to earn my love, so I ended up liking her more now.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_thirty2flavors/]

Yeah. I mean... yes, the Doctor is super special rainbow amazing, absolutely. He is more super special rainbow amazing than anyone else on the show is ever going to be. But we kind of accept that, because he's the lead, and also because we're sort of... with him. He's on our side. River shows up and starts laughing at the Doctor and knowing more than him, but that also means by extension she knows more than the audience and is in some ways laughing at them as well. At least, that's how it felt to me. There's definitely going to be people who just like her for being a snarky bastard and think she is an HBIC right way, but I don't think it's ludicrous to understand that the introduction of a character who is, from the first episode, presented as More Important Than Any Other Companion! when we're presumably already attached to the current companion(s) ...idk, it's going to annoy some people. Besides that, her backwards storyline is unconventional, which makes it risky too.

I am not Moffat's biggest fan, but I will give credit where it is due and say that I think he has done better with River than I anticipated -- I really did not like her at all when she was introduced and I am genuinely very fond of her now. But based on the weird way we met her, I don't think it's crazy that people didn't like her at first.

[(Anonymous)]

We're not living in the Who-verse, though, and I bet that even if we were, there'd be many, many people who'd think he's annoying/too perfect/unlikable etc. I sure as hell would hate his mysterious ways.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

That's exactly my point. The Doctor is finally being forced to live like a "normal" person and not be the one who knows everything. In River, we're getting a chance to see the Doctor the way the rest of Who-verse (non-companion) does. And that's why she frustrates so many people. And that's why I love her lol.

[(Anonymous)]

My point was this: considering all that can you really blame people for disliking River?

[fenm.livejournal.com]

"Midnight"? Really? You mean the episode where strangers almost killed The Doctor, partially because of how arrogant he'd been acting? Besides, we, the audience, know The Doctor. So other people finding him awesome isn't a stretch. As thirty2flavors says, with him, we're in the joke. OTOH, River's this random lady who showed up and starts shouting "Spoilers!" and we were supposed to be completely taken with someone we barely knew, and who had yet to earn it.

It's like your comparing River to The Master argument up above, really. The character's been around since the 70's. We've seen the stuff he can do. So him getting a season that revolves around him is understandable; he's been around longer than any single DW character except The Doctor, The TARDIS, and The Brigadier. Oh, and I'd like to point out that in that season that you say "revolved" around him (I'm assuming you mean the one that ended with "Last of the Time Lords"?) he was actually only in three episodes--two if you count Simm!Master.

[wldcatsprstr-14.livejournal.com]

"Midnight"? Really? You mean the episode where strangers almost killed The Doctor, partially because of how arrogant he'd been acting? Besides, we, the audience, know The Doctor. So other people finding him awesome isn't a stretch. As thirty2flavors says, with him, we're in the joke. OTOH, River's this random lady who showed up and starts shouting "Spoilers!" and we were supposed to be completely taken with someone we barely knew, and who had yet to earn it.

This is my point lol. Maybe I didn't articulate it well. My point is that they were pissed at him for being so arrogant when they didn't even know where the fuck he came from and there he is judging them and ordering them around. Just like they weren't "in on the joke" with the Doctor, we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her. River is what everyone else sees when they look at the Doctor. Her presence really makes us think about the things that we let the Doctor get away with (all the secrets, etc) just because we know him. So being annoyed with her makes sense but when you look at the bigger picture, it's actually quite amusing to see the Doctor having to be a "normal" person that's out of the loop.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that in that season that you say "revolved" around him (I'm assuming you mean the one that ended with "Last of the Time Lords"?) he was actually only in three episodes--two if you count Simm!Master.

What I meant was simply that River (and her secrets) is a major plot point this season, just as the Master was for those episodes. Moff has said so many times. So the season being saturated with her makes sense. I wasn't trying to compare them based on time on DW, just as major plot points.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

What I meant was simply that River (and her secrets) is a major plot point this season, just as the Master was for those episodes.

Except.. the Master wasn't right there the whole season, annoying the hell out of the viewers. He wasn't on the TARDIS, in your face, being obnoxious.

Then again, I'm pretty sure Moffat wouldn't know subtlety if it hit him over the head with a sledgehammer, so I'm not shocked he doesn't recognize the importance of the concept.

[fenm.livejournal.com]

we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her.

Which is a REALLY bad way to introduce a character the writers CLEARLY want us to like. Some of us (and I include myself in this [hence, "us"]) are never going to quite get over that original annoyance, no matter what she does.

I wasn't trying to compare them based on time on DW

Except that was kinda my point: Him being around longer makes any focus on him feel more deserved. Whereas River's only been around a few years, and has been in about half-a-dozen episodes, so... why do I care enough about her that a whole season should be devoted to her storyline? Oh, right: I don't.

[duae.livejournal.com]

My point is that they were pissed at him for being so arrogant when they didn't even know where the fuck he came from and there he is judging them and ordering them around. Just like they weren't "in on the joke" with the Doctor, we aren't "in on the joke" with River so we're annoyed with her.

I would like to point out that it doesn't really matter that there's a good intellectual reason to find her annoying, and that making a character deliberately annoying when they're supposed to be likable is crappy writing.

I mean, I can bring in a pile of scientific studies as to why the majority of humans finds Fingernails on Chalkboard to be an irritating sound, you still don't MAKE that sound and then tell people to get over their stupid instinctual response and expect them to like it.

[runonmoonlight.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the part where we're /supposed/ to love River right away. Maybe he wanted people to be all 'wtf' and then have her grow on you. There's a character in Farscape, Jool - who is the most annoying character ever at first, but then she grows and develops and then you hate her less and less and then you like her and then you end up being all "NO DON'T LEAVE JOOL!". So you follow the same emotional arc as the characters in the show. So maybe we're supposed to be following the Doctors emotional journey on this one, where he starts off all 'wtf' and so does not trust her - but it all grows and we get to take that journey with him.

Then again I'm the one sitting here not getting the absolute hard on for Amy everyone has, I don't dislike her at all - I do like her, there's definitely some cool stuff going on and she works with Eleven. But I'm not seeing the 'super special awesome' that a lot of other people seem to be seeing.

[nebari-rebel.livejournal.com]

then again I'm the one sitting here not getting the absolute hard on for Amy everyone has, I don't dislike her at all - I do like her, there's definitely some cool stuff going on and she works with Eleven. But I'm not seeing the 'super special awesome' that a lot of other people seem to be seeing.

I thought I was the only one and have been afraid to say it! She always seems a little too precious, a little too deliberately designed to make us AWWW or think her flaws are adorable and cheeky and not annoying or assy like everyone else. I love her, but if anyone is a Mary Sue in DW, it's Amy.

I agree with you about Jool, too.