fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #158 ]

Had she not been mistaken for Calypso, Sao Feng wouldn't have taken her. When he died and made her captain (because he thought she was Calypso), she got to go to the Brethren Court, where Jack voted to make her King, and because of her role as King, they all went to fight at the Climactic Battle at the end of the movie were they emerged triumphant.

If Sao Feng had lived and Elizabeth had not been made captain or King, the Pirate Lords would probably be arguing for days/weeks/whatever amongst themselves since I doubt that any of them would have voted for anyone but themselves, and in the end, they probably wouldn't have chosen to go and fight, since so many were vehemently against it.

So I will disagree when you say that it had nothing to do with the plot. It had a lot to do with the plot.

If Jack or Barbossa (or the monkey) had been made King on top of everything they already were, would you be calling them Sues?

But... she didn't have to be pirate king. I mean, Jack's apparently willing to vote for other people, or she could have voted for someone else. Elizabeth didn't have to be the pirate king for the story to make sense.

Barbosa isn't a sue for obvious reason, and Jack isn't a sue because he's weird and crazy/doesn't fit a personality mold.

But what was the guarantee that someone else would have chosen to stay in fight? If I recall, only one of the other Pirate Lords wanted to fight, and Jack... well, it's implied that he's screwed most of the Brethren over at various points, so I can't see him entrusting his fate to anyone else in that room.

Sure, he might have voted for something else. But thematically, it makes sense for it to be Elizabeth, because otherwise, she probably would have been phased out of the story completely, since that was her big thing all through AWE, and why would the writers discard their protagonist?

Jack's not a Sue? He:
a)makes it with hot women all the world over
b)manages to outsmart practically everyone
c)pulls off stunts that would never, ever work
d)has a good heart underneath the scruffy pirate exterior
e)inspires loyalty in many people that he's screwed over multiple times
f)is super attractive (to both the audience and the cast)
g)knows practically everyone in the cast and has some hand in their backstory, no matter where they are from or what their background is
h)has mad skillz at basically everything he tries his hand at
i)is one of the focal points of the entire series

Personality isn't what determines a Sue. It's what they do and their role within the main storyline. Just because Jack is "quirky" doesn't mean that he cannot possibly be considered one.

Just to clarify, I'm not accusing Jack of being a horrible character or anything, but I'm just saying if we're pointing fingers at people being Sues or whatever, he ranks so much higher on the list, IMO, than either Will or Elizabeth.

What about the dog?

The dog is a total Sue. He's like Jack, but MORE.

No, man. It's the monkey. The monkey. Not only does it survive through everything, but it's a potential love interest for the super-hot parrot, and it's so damn lovable that even Barbossa baby-talks to it! Damn monkey.

Plus it counted as just payment for the secret of how to defeat the freaking Grim Reaper of the Seas. AND, UNDERNEATH IT ALL, THE MONKEY IS ACTUALLY FEMALE.

OH SHIT. D:

It's not personality? So a girl who's sweet, kind, loving, pretty, an angel born on earth, a healer, has a high voice, big eyes, needs to be saved constantly, and is loved by everyone can't be a sue based on that alone?

Characters can be put in generic situations with unique or different personalities, which is what makes them stray from the path of the cliche. Insert Jack.

Of the things you listed, the following are not personality traits: pretty, an angel born on earth, a healer, has a high voice, big eyes, needs to be saved constantly, and is loved by everyone.

But of the things remaining (being sweet, kind, and loving)... yeah, those don't automatically make a Sue.

So Elizabeth was bugfuck crazy, she wouldn't be a Sue? I mean, she's somewhat bitchy, entitled, gets frustrated easily, and isn't above using her sexuality or femininity to achieve her goals, and her plans don't always succeed. She is not loved by everyone. She has flaws that actually affect her. This isn't your classic sweet, innocent, damsel in distress, so it's not like she hits that stereotype, and she doesn't hit the STRONG WOMAN GIRL-POWER ROWR!!!1 stereotype either.

Ahaha, poor word choice. Not personality, just not... idk, not completely related to actions.

Um she does in the third movie lol. And yeah, if she were a nutjob, she wouldn't be a sue.

Um no she doesn't lol.

If she hit the strong woman stereotype, she would have gained all her positions through her own hand instead of getting them because she was being treated as a pawn by far stronger characters. So... what? She was in a few swordfights and got a few fancy titles that she didn't actually earn and benefited from circumstance. I really don't think that qualifies as the "I AM WOMYN HEAR ME ROAR" you see a lot in Sue fics

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I was going to say Barbosa isn't a stu because he's heinously ugly, but okay.

Since it was her idea to fight, and Jack was the only one who agreed with her, it was either Elizabeth or Jack who had to be the King. Sure, it could have been Jack but honestly- he had other stuff to do. If Jack had been Pirate King, they couldn't have traded him to the other side and thus Jack never would have gotten on the ship, gotten at the heart, ect. ect. In that sense, it had to be Elizabeth.

If she were not made a Pirate lord by circumstance in the first place (a role which other characters often treated as ridiculous on her; it's a nice thought, but I honestly doubt after the "war" was over any of those pirates would continue listening to her if not held at gunpoint by Cap'n Teague), what would she have done in the movie? The writers set her and Will up to be a loose "positive" parallel to Davy and Tia. So Will becomes Captain of the Dutchman, and Elizabeth... is still a noble girl tagging along for the ride? They *BOTH* had to be elevated to epic roles in order to, y'know, make the story epic.

If Sao Feng had lived, either the brethren would have done NOTHING at all, or Barbossa would have been voted Pirate King since Sao Feng agreed with him and junk. And that would have been totally less cool because Barbossa is totally suited to be a Pirate King and these movies are all about coincidental, ironic destiny ~~and tentacle rape~~.

Barbosa isn't a sue for obvious reason

I HOPE YOU'RE IMPLYING SOMETHING ELSE AND NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT HE IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. BECUZ GEOFFREY RUSH IS A+++++ SEXY. D:

BECUZ GEOFFREY RUSH IS A+++++ SEXY. D:

THIS IS THE TRUTH

NO TRUER TRUTH SPOKEN.

I would just like to say that I agree with all of your points and also want to add that Elizabeth becoming a captain and a King doesn't mean that she automatically becomes Super Powerful. She's basically the same person she was in Dead Man's Chest, she just has a few more fancy titles in front of her name.

So basically, the argument being made is that Elizabeth is a Sue because she's got a few titles added to her name (which probably don't even hold sway after the end of the movie, since she doesn't stay with the crew of The Empress and goes off to raise a son). That just seems a bit ridiculous.

I think she does stay in Shipwreck Cove, though, if that means anything.

Again with the writers thing. I mean, they wrote it that way, but they didn't have to. Chicks can be cool without being STRONG FEMALE, etc.

Oh, I was gonna say ugly :(

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Um no LOL. The STRONG FEMALE stereotype doesn't need to hang out and around to make a female character cool. For example: Tia Dalma is by no means useless, wimpy, or helpless. Yet she's cool and not a huge cliche. Hmmm.

Re: (i sound so srs, but i'm actually enjoying this debate. lawl).

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Re: (i sound so srs, but i'm actually enjoying this debate. lawl).

panksters.livejournal.com - 2007-06-14 17:51 (UTC) - Expand

What would you have her do, sit on the sidelines and be useless while the men go off and do their jolly male-dominating thing? A strong, important character does NOT a Sue make.

I liked her in the first two movies :S

I agree wholeheartedly with the other commenters. Seriously, I recommend maybe taking a step back and actually listening to their arguments, rather than brushing them off. The key to debate is being open to others' opinions =\

But I don't agree with them :/