[ SECRET POST #1667 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1667 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Posting this while LJ is up. Comment threads to follow

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 099 secrets from Secret Submission Post #238.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

If you just want to pick up some books about it, The Obesity Myth by Paul Campos is a good start. Big Fat Lies by Glenn Gaesser is also good. See also: Rethinking Thin (Gina Kolata).

For a quick link doing a really basic summary of the science arguments, see
The epidemiology of overweight and obesity: public health crisis or moral panic? ( http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/1/55.full )

For even more critique, there's this ( http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/02/i-think-therefore-i-am-part-three.html ) ( http://kateharding.net/2007/11/27/the-fantasy-of-being-thin/ ) (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/04/03/the-case-against-weight-loss-dieting/ )

And, in case you don't feel like reading a small pile of well referenced links and books - here's the short version.

There is no solid scientifically proven healthy way to permanently lose weight. Not one. 95-98% of all people on ANY weight loss program gain the weight back (plus some! Weight loss dieting causes weight GAIN in the long term!). So even if obesity were causing all the things it claims to cause, there's nothing we could do about it, and making people feel shitty about themselves isn't helping anyone. Dieting with attempts at weight loss have been shown to ~increase~ the likelihood of heart and artery disease in the long run. Having people lose weight (temporarily) in an attempt to prevent heart disease is like having people go tanning in an attempt to prevent skin cancer because white people get skin cancer more often. It makes no sense. Continuing to prescribe this as a solution that could work, when it demonstrably doesn't, is just bad medicine.

That is, of course, if you believe that we are getting exponentially fatter as a society and that being fat equates with being unhealthy. But we aren't getting fatter as a society. We did gain weight between the 1960s and the 1990s, but around the turn of the millennium that gain plateaued (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/303/3/235.full) - Studies that say it didn't plateau tend to be going by percentage of population that is considered obese, and failing to correct for the 1998 change to the definition of obesity. In 1998 the CDC lowered the minimum BMI for the "obese" category from 32.7 to 30. The number of obese people nearly doubled overnight - but it doesn't reflect a change in population or a rapidly fatter population any more than saying now there's eight planets when there used to be nine reflects any sort of reality about disappearing planets.

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

And being fat or thin isn't a predictor of health until you get into the far extremes - which is what you would expect from and U curve, bell-curved population. People at the far ends of tall and short also have higher mortality - but "overweight" people actually have the longest life expectancy, and people in the category Obese I don't seem to suffer any ill effects and have comparable health to those in the "normal" BMI category. ( http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/6/568.full ), ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26143255) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543208 ) (OH GOD I HAVE SO MANY MORE REFERENCES FOR THIS IF YOU WANT)

Plus, as far as we can tell, weight is genetic. About as genetic as height, sexual orientation, and dominant handedness. There has been a drift recently, and some of that is probably due to better living circumstances, but there's also been a drift towards taller people (we are an inch or more taller than our grandparents) which no one seems to be nearly as worried about. ( http://children.webmd.com/news/20080211/nature-trumps-nurture-in-child-obesity )

And, finally, if you dig into the origins of the "obesity crisis", the idea stems from American Health Insurance companies, who in the late thirties were looking for "risk factors" as excuses to charge more. They tried all kinds of things: height, skin tone, foot size, even. But the one that people were least likely to complain about was BMI (which it took them several years to settle on and standardize).

In other words, the obesity crisis started as a salable cash grab from insurance companies - and it was salable for two reasons, 1) the people most likely to suffer the consequences of it were the already disenfranchised, because people of color (especially Black and Hispanic) are genetically disposed to higher weights, and 2) it was very fashionable. Coco Chanel and others had established the popularity of being stick thin and because it's always more fun to present the obligatory performance of gender and fashion by women as something besides made-up garbage, the idea of it being about "health" sold to women's magazines like hotcakes.

[jenioctavia.livejournal.com]

Oops! I didn't see this second post before! Also good information, though.

(I agree on the 'not a predictor of health' comment, as well. I'm overweight and have been for the better part of my life, and it was only very recently that it's started effecting my health at all. My overweight step mother is otherwise healthy save for bad knees that were a result of early onset arthritis. Now my overweight mother was sadly on side of 'severely unhealthy from the get-go' but, again, weight =/= instant health issues all the time.)

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

Lol, it's okay. I think we may have been simul-posting there.

My roommate it much bigger than I am, and also much healthier, both herself (she can lift more than I can, run longer than I can, and I'm only ever faster than her because I'm taller) and her diet (she cooks her own food most of the time, and ~loves~ veggies).

I sit around on the couch eating bagel bites all day, and while I'm not thin, most people wouldn't call me fat.

The world isn't as clear cut as people make it out to be.

Thank you for your kind comments. :D

[jenioctavia.livejournal.com]

You're welcome :)

That's almost exactly how it is with my roommate and I! She's short and certainly not fat (a little chubby after not working for almost a year, but that's going away fast with her new job) and I cannot for the life of me get her to eat a green vegetable that hasn't been cooked in to submission! XD I've given up trying at this point even if I would like to see her healthier, but its her choice in the end.

I do try to cook as much as possible for the house if and when I can. Going to school during the summer leaves me exhausted, and more so this year because I'm going through a shit-ton of medical tests to determine just how bad my health really is (so far, not as bad as they were thinking - diabetes sucks but is manageable. All my other numbers are either normal or just slightly above normal.) so we're probably not eating as good as we COULD be, but I think in this world anything helps even when you're not being as good as your doctors would like you to be.

And on the subject of plus-size cosplay (since its being discussed below) - being overweight should NOT be a deterrent to dressing up and having a good time. If you choose your costume wisely, make it well and with pride, you can be just as good looking as the thin cosplayers. If anything in this topic is a choice, THAT is.

And there ARE larger characters out there, you just have to know where to look. I personally would love to do Telma from Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess some day, if I ever get the time.

SORRY I'm rambling, but this is one subject I have a hard time keeping quiet about, even with all the wank that is guaranteed to follow.

[megu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, except that you can lose weight, it is healthy to eat well and exercise, and you can keep the weight off. I'm sorry I don't care how "researched" any of this is, it's simply wrong.

I'm not saying obese or overweight people can't be healthy, but saying that it's not proven that you can lose weight healthily or keep it off permanently, that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Seriously.

I used to be overweight, lost 22% of my body weight by (gasp) eating healthier and exercising regularly. I've kept it off for almost 2 years, not once gaining back any significant amount of the weight I lost. I feel fucking awesome. Sorry if you feel that's not possible or healthy, sucks for you!

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I thought the statistic that's been cited somewhere in the thread that says that 90-95% of people who lose weight gain it back was ridiculously high. Like, that many people don't have self control or what?

I've lost a lot of weight recently (still doing so) and I'm feeling pretty awesome, especially since I realized that eating and living healthy actually feels good.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, this. Everything I've read from the FA movement itself is not just "people deserve respect regardless of size"; if it were just that, I'd be behind it 100%. Instead, the movement also promotes this ridiculously defeatist attitude "backed up" by pseudoscience (at best, bullshit made-up-on-the-spot statistics at worst). Apparently, accepting that fat people are fat because of their unhealthy lifestyle choices far more often than because of medical issues is a lot harder than simply lying to make themselves feel better.

If you don't want to change your lifestyle and lose weight, fine. You don't have to. Hell, I'm overweight myself because of crappy choices and I don't really care enough to do anything about it. But at least have the guts to be honest about why you're fat instead of pulling "science" out of your ass to cover up that you're lazy and like junk food like everyone else.

[megu.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly! Just admit that you like to eat a lot and not exercise. It is fine. But don't make things up to justify it. We don't mind your weight!

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

Except that my roommate, who is bigger than I am (I straddle the line between the BMI categories of overweight and obese depending on the time of the month and what I had for breakfast, lol) and who only a stupid person would try to claim isn't fat (she's also gorgeous) doesn't like sweets. She loves salads and vegetables and white meats. She cooks her own food, and she goes to the gym three times a week. More if she has more free time. She can lift three times to amount of weight that I can, and has more physical endurance than most people I've met.

My friend Crystal, who is bigger than my roommate is, also goes to the gym, has a job that requires a lot of physical activity, and is a vegetarian. She also loves to cook, and makes a great vegan stew.

I am the thinnest of the three. Most people to look at me wouldn't even call me fat. And I spend my time reading, searching the internet, and I can't afford membership to the gym, and I love a candy bar and I love a burger. I should be gaining weight exponentially, but funny enough, I'm maintaining the same weight I have had for years. I haven't gone up a pants size since I was eighteen. Five years ago.

They should be losing weight, but funny enough, they aren't.

To ask them to just admit [they] like to eat a lot and not exercise is to ask them to lie. To say they must not be exercising or eating well is to deny them their lived experiences and accuse them of lying.

They are beautiful and healthy and happy in their bodies, which happen to be fat bodies. Fat, healthy, bodies.

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry I don't care how "researched" any of this is,

That's nice. And conveniently gets you out of backing yourself up.

And I didn't say nobody could lose weight, I said it's a statistical anomaly, which it is. That is why every diet program in the world includes this-

*results not typical

Some people can lose weight. Most people can't. That's not lying. It's well researched fact. If you can come up with ONE, just ONE reliable, re-creatable study showing a diet and exercise program that was shown in clinical study to maintain a significant weight loss (meaning around 25% at least with even 50% of its participants maintaining it in the long term (meaning longer than five years) I will mail you my hair.

If they've done all that and are actually still experiencing health benefits (meaning this program isn't actively harmful) than I will sing a song, and might even try it myself.

Oh right, but you don't care about ~research~.

There are limits. To these things. Most people have a set point range. You can be on the high end or low end of your range, but most people do still have a range, they do still have a place where they cannot healthily do more. Admitting that isn't defeatist unless you think you are a failure if you are fat. The point of Fat Acceptance is to let people know they are not, and that being fat shouldn't be something that keeps you from living your life they way you imagine it.

[(Anonymous)]

And considering how often these FA bloggers make up statistics on the spot or pull them from other FA blogs (rather than be arsed to look up any legitimate studies on the matter not filtered through the mouth of Kate Harding), I'm not inclined to take your "research" as anything but the blathering of someone who is in denial of their own laziness.

And I'm also overweight. But unlike you all in this FA ridiculousness, I at least have the guts to truly accept it and that it's largely my choice to be fat, and not care whether being so is "healthy" or "normal" or not. That you're so hellbent on grasping a Kate Harding-shaped straw to prove how "normal" you are tells me you're just as, if not more, insecure than those who give you grief over your weight.

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

I didn't make statistics up on the spot. I linked to the Oxford Fucking Journal.

I'm sorry you are lazy and can't be bothered to read.

Here. I'll make it easy for you.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/1/55.full

There.

[megu.livejournal.com]

The thing about that "results not typical" disclaimer is that not everyone does it right. If you want results from a diet or workout plan, you actually have to do it correctly. Most people don't. That is why. The reason they can't do a clinical study about weight loss is that it's all due to a person's effort, their motivation, their self control. The reason people fail is not because it's scientifically impossible to lose weight and keep it off, but because they fall back into old habits and gain the weight back. Fat does not just spontaneously grow on your body, it has to come from somewhere, and guess what, it comes from not eating right and being sedentary.

I agree there are limits to these things, and not everyone can (or should) be a size 2, and I'm not disagreeing that for some people their "healthy" weight range may fall into overweight or obesity. But trying to argue that it's not possible to lose weight and keep it off... is just nonsense.

[(Anonymous)]

The reason people fail is not because it's scientifically impossible to lose weight and keep it off, but because they fall back into old habits and gain the weight back.

This comment is golden and you should feel awesome for making it.

[green-glee.livejournal.com]

"THESE STATISTICS OF YOURS MEAN NOTHING. LET ME COUNTER THEM WITH MY PERSONAL ANECDATA!"

[megu.livejournal.com]

Yeah except burning more calories than you consume = weight loss. That is science.

[(Anonymous)]

No kidding. I swear, FA people bring the most hilarious Butthurt of Denial.

[green-glee.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry I can't hear you over the sound of how self-absorbed you are.

[jenioctavia.livejournal.com]

I was going to say something about this post, too, but honestly I think you summed it up better than anyone has.

Making people feel bad about anything, even something that's "preventable" like weight, doesn't help them or anyone else in the end. In fact you're only making the problem WORSE with that attitude, and its really sad that people can't realize that.

Thank you for putting these facts up here, timemachineyeah. Hopefully some one will actually take the time to think about what you've said and change their mind the next time they see some one overweight, be they a cosplayer or just somebody they know.

The anon above also had a very good point as well.

[megalomaniageek.livejournal.com]

I like you and have linked to this post in my "notes" feature next to your name. Couldn't have said anything better myself and will almost assuredly be linking many people to this because the argument comes up over and over and over and over and over.

[relic-of-asgard.livejournal.com]

While I mostly agree with you, I have to say that my weight is what is killing my knees. :( I'm probably just barely considered obese, but enough that it's hurting. But I don't want to change for anyone but my own health and well being.

[timemachineyeah.livejournal.com]

That's fine. While weight itself very very rarely causes joint problems, it can and does exacerbate them sometimes. It would be silly of me to deny that. There are plenty of health problems that are also exacerbated by being thin. That this is true doesn't mean that those weights are inherently evil things to be, and if people are happy with their weight that's no one else's business.

If you need to try to lose weight for you, and you're making an educated choice, that's good. Sometimes there are good reasons to want to at least try. Sometimes that does work out.

But if it doesn't work out, that's not your fault. It doesn't for most people. And if people try to guilt you or shame you for not being able to keep weight off, fuck 'em. Those people are assholes.

I just don't want people destroying themselves with guilt and shame in the process of giving that slight chance that they might be one of the statistical outliers who can keep the weight off a shot, and I don't want people who are fat and are perfectly healthy feeling like their weight alone is somehow a problem when clearly it's not. Nor do I want people who's health problems aren't actually caused by their weight to go around treating the wrong thing. And, knowing that weight loss is a treatment plan that doesn't last over 90% of the time, I don't want people going into it with the wrong expectations. But if it's worth it to you to try, that's okay.

Do what you gotta do for you.

[(Anonymous)]

Nor do I want people who's health problems aren't actually caused by their weight to go around treating the wrong thing.

As someone with a health problem that causes bizarre weight gain as one of its symptoms, thank you for acknowledging that we exist. I cannot express how shitty it is that people act like my physical appearance gives them a free pass to treat me like shit because clearly I must eat every meal at McD's. I feel shitty enough without people assuming I'm a lazy glutton too.

[eelsalad.livejournal.com]

Well said!

Back when my knees were bad (ie, between puberty and about age 31), my Mom responded to any mention of pain with "lose weight!" Turned out what I really needed was knee surgery, and now my knees are basically fine for the first time in my life. My knees sucked even in my early 20s when I was so skinny you could see my ribs (thanks to a medical problem).

BUT: yes, weight can exacerbate certain knee issues. The trick is getting a doctor who will actually look at them and not look at your weight (my proportions are such that this hasn't been a problem for me, but it has been for other folks I know). There's a great entry on this subject over at Dancess With Fat (http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/my-joints-my-fat-and-me/).