fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1837 ]

[ SECRET POST #1837 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1837 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02. [broken link]

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03.

[Robin Of Sherwood/Michael Praed]

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04.

[Glee]

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05.

[We Got Married - Ga In (Brown Eyed Girls)/Jo Kwon (2AM)]

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06.

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07.

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08.

[Buzz Lightyear of Star Command]

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09. http://i.imgur.com/8DbqS.png
[linked for nudity/kind of porny]

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10.

[Josh Groban and Andrea Bocelli]

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11.

[Beast Wars, Megatron]

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12.

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13.

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14.

[Magic Mike]

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15.

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16. [repeat]

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17.

[Harry Potter & Little House on the Prairie]

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18.

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19.

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20.

[X-Men: First Class]

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21.

[Death Note]

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22.

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23.

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24.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

25. [SPOILERS for something, OP did not specify]

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26. [SPOILERS for Vampire Hunter D]

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27. [SPOILERS for Christmas Doctor Who and New Year's Sherlock]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

28. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]
[SPOILERS for Loveless]

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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse]

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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, animal cruelty]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #262.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Um. You've been trying to tell me this whole time that what the Nazis did was worse,

No. I said it's perceived as worse by many, many people and had a different cultural impact. You know this and that annoys you. I know this and try to know why because I think it's interesting.

so it's okay that people jump on Hetalia fans being insensitive about Nazis but not so much about other similar happenings. That is a moral judgement

I think it's okay for people to jump on anyone who's insensitive about tragedies. I also try to understand why some tragedies are featured more prominently than others. No moral judgement - or yes, there's, as I feel a deep repulsion for the Nazi ideology and for the Soviet Union, which is tied with my own political beliefs; but better than moral outcries are attempts to analyse things.

Yeah, you could. And I'd think you're being utterly gross for it.

No all crimes make people feel the same way. People who had a history with fascism (and Nazism is a form of it) will probably be more sensitive to its crimes than somebody who has no contact whatsoever. It's human nature. I'm more sensitive about what the last dictatorship did in my country than you or any non-Argentinian would be, because it's closer to me. While we intellectually understand that all murders are wrong and condemn them morally, not all of them generate the same visceral reaction, due to personal history.

Because I'm sorry, but what sort of genocide or mass killing doesn't involve coldness and sheer barbarism? These are all cases of horrifically high numbers of people being slaughtered for terrible reasons.

First of all, mass killing is not the same than genocide.

There are numerous cases that ended up in mass killings that do not have the sheer scientific approach of the Final Solution. The Spanish colonisation of America is an example: many consider it a genocide but it doesn't have the same characteristics of the Third Reich. The Harrying of the North, another event considered genocide by many lack the business-like feeling of the Third Reich. The Terror (though it's a mass killing case, not genocide), my own country's experience... all of them are different. All of them are barbaric but not stone cold.

Again, that doesn't mean anything on moral matters. But the crimes of Nazi Germany and the ones committed by the Soviet Union are studied differently because they have different ideological basis and were done in different ways. And the study of those differences is a pretty interesting thing, imho.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Do you even know any history behind any genocide besides the Holocaust? Because you sure as fuck don't sound like you do.

Yes, I do. I'm not talking about the actual events but about how people perceive them and why some may find one thing more offensive than the other. I think it's interesting to know why, in front of events that are roughly the same, we react differently: how much of it is temperamental and how much of it is culture-based? Does time change our reaction? Does knowing the victims have anything to do? Have cultural ties with the victims or the perpetrators affect our perception? How does media plays in this?

Now, I have a question for you: you are obviously a Germanophile (like I am an Anglophile) and you are aware of people dismissing Soviet crimes and putting emphasis on Nazi ones. Why do you think it's this way? I think it's related to the symbolic place Germany has in the European matrix but I'm curious on your take as you have obviously put a lot of thought on this.

You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

"No all crimes make people feel the same way. People who had a history with fascism (and Nazism is a form of it) will probably be more sensitive to its crimes than somebody who has no contact whatsoever. It's human nature. I'm more sensitive about what the last dictatorship did in my country than you or any non-Argentinian would be, because it's closer to me. While we intellectually understand that all murders are wrong and condemn them morally, not all of them generate the same visceral reaction, due to personal history."

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't. It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day. When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

"First of all, mass killing is not the same than genocide. "

When did I say they were? idk if you're trying to insult my intelligence here or what, but my point is that they are both horrible things. Not that they're synonyms. And you're the one who brought up mass killings in the first place. And uh. They are all stone cold. Because it takes a total inhuman approach to be willing to kill people on such a scale. Even just murdering one person is something that is very hard to do without some level of detachment from humanity.

"Yes, I do. I'm not talking about the actual events but about how people perceive them and why some may find one thing more offensive than the other. I think it's interesting to know why, in front of events that are roughly the same, we react differently: how much of it is temperamental and how much of it is culture-based? Does time change our reaction? Does knowing the victims have anything to do? Have cultural ties with the victims or the perpetrators affect our perception? How does media plays in this?"

Yes, this is all fascinating, but it's not at all what you were saying in your initial comment. You flat out claimed Nazis are the worst ever. Which is utter bullshit.

You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.

True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.

It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.

That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.

When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.

I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?

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You're backpedaling now, good job. The first thing you said here was that the Nazis' crimes are "on a different level" from Soviet, Japanese, etc crimes. That means worse. Your initial statement boils down to "what the Nazis did was worse than what any other country ever did" and I'm sorry but that's bullshit. 

And they are. They have a level of infamy that I haven't seen in any other case... expect maybe the Spanish Black Legend. From a humane POV, murder is plain wrong, but the effect that Nazi crimes had on people's minds put them in another level. I expressed myself wrongly, it seems, and I apologise. Just like the mention of the Ukraninan genocide answered my question about how Soviet crimes are considered.

Uhm. Yes but not everyone who flips their shit about the way some Hetalia fans make light of the Nazis were actually directly affected by Nazis. Hell, most people who carry on about Nazis weren't.

True. But I'd wager that the effects and repercussion of Nazi crimes do have an impact in most of our societies, if only because we learn more about them thant we learn about other cases.

It's a matter of media sensationalism of Nazis that continues to this day.

That's a good theory. But why do you think Nazis are more in the spotlight.

When Merkel gave her "multikulti is dead" speech, the BBC did an incorrect translation of it to try to make it sound like "oh no Germany might be going Nazi again~!" when in reality the speech was about Turkish immigrants murdering Turkish women in "honor killings" while in Germany and trying to get away with it by hiding behind the "it's my culture!" excuse, and Merkel was saying "um yeah no, if you live in Germany you don't get to kill people and get away with it, culture or not." But since Nazis are still a popular thing to sensationalize, that got dragged in.

True. I remember that speech and, honest to God, I did a double take. Because Germany has a sad story on this issues and it's pretty hard to ignore it even if you know modern Germany is nothing like that, save for a few lunatics.

I wonder how many people know about the Turkish issue? I had a long talk with an Austria exchange student but I must admit that, unless you look for it, news on cultural clashing in Europe hardly reach here. How is it in the US?

<i<When did I say they were? idk if you're trying to insult my intelligence here or what, but my point is that they are both horrible things. Not that they're synonyms. 

I must have misread you, then.

And you're the one who brought up mass killings in the first place. 

Because there tends to be a debate about the line between genocide and mass killing.

And uh. They are all stone cold. Because it takes a total inhuman approach to be willing to kill people on such a scale. Even just murdering one person is something that is very hard to do without some level of detachment from humanity. 

I disagree. Many horrid, massive crimes are committed for entirely non-rational reasons. Or better yet, without much of an elaborated rationale behind them. Not every genocide has the complex legal and "scientific" structure the Nazis created.

My country as an example: the Army kidnapped, tortured and murdered people with a certain method but fuelled by anti-communist paranoia. It was no-where near the level of thought the Nazis put on it. The Middle Ages saw plentiful of mass killings of the Jewish population in the context of religious hysteria. The destruction of native peoples in South America was more of a blind lashing filled with cruelty and horror than a well-thought plan to exterminate a group of people that was legally equal to the Spanish conquerors. The Crusades are a good example of mass killings done without any planning, too.

Not all murderers are devoid of humanity: not all of them are psychopaths/sociopaths.

Yes, this is all fascinating, but it's not at all what you were saying in your initial comment. You flat out claimed Nazis are the worst ever. Which is utter bullshit. 

I said that they are in a different level and are regarded so.

"I said that they are in a different level and are regarded so."

Exactly. Which is a judgment call claiming that it was the worst case ever. Which is bullshit. I'm sorry, but any killing like this is devoid of humanity. It's treating an entire group of people as less than human, and behaving as though it's justified to murder them as such. It doesn't matter if there's some sort of "scientific" rationale attached or not. Deciding to kill a large amount of people for simply being of a certain religion or nationality or ethnic group is a monstrous act no matter why it's done. The end.

No, I didn't say it's the wore case ever. I said it's been put in a different level.

Killing like this is devoid of humanity? I wish. But not every person who committed these crimes are psychopaths/sociopaths. They weren't devoid of humanity. If that were the case there would be no need to question why happened. Humans did this, normal humans.

And I would say that the construction of justifications and or rationale behind these kind of crimes is what make them unique and interesting to study. It's not all the same and it's not a bunch of monsters killing people. Regardless of how wrong it is, is not as simple as that.

No, you didn't say it's been put on a different level. You said it is on a different level. The former suggests that the case is looked at differently and regarded as worse, though that may not be right. The latter suggests that it is right.

"Killing like this is devoid of humanity? I wish. But not every person who committed these crimes are psychopaths/sociopaths. They weren't devoid of humanity. If that were the case there would be no need to question why happened. Humans did this, normal humans."

It is. To be able to kill another person, someone has to shut off their compassion entirely for that moment. The thing to study here is what exactly makes someone willing to do that. Sometimes, in cases of a murder of a single person, it happens for pretty normal and human reasons. A jilted lover, someone who's been abused finally fighting back against their attacker, some sort of escalated fight or feud, etc. But when it's no longer on a personal level, but rather an attack on an entire group, it's pretty much never understandable within human emotion. To murder people solely for a group they belong to is to dehumanize them, and to do that to such an extent to be willing to kill them is to dehumanize yourself, if just temporarily.

I must have been unclear. I think it is in a different level because it's perceived as different for the reasons I've mentioned.

I don't agree. History show us very compassionate people who are able to kill hundreds due to religious and/or ideological conviction, not to mention plain old fear. Also, I think that dehumanising the people responsible of these crimes (unless they are, in fact, psychopaths) is making them less guilty. Maybe I don't understand "being human" as you do? I don't think it's 100% good thing: I see people as being a mix of goodness and evil and mediocrity.

"I must have been unclear. I think it is in a different level because it's perceived as different for the reasons I've mentioned. "

...In other words, you think the perceptions are right. Look. There are two different levels to look at here; the perception that people have and what the actual truth is. They are separate matters and need to be treated as such. To say that what the Nazis did is perceived as worse than other genocides (or "on a different level" if you must insist on that wording, but stop playing games with me, you know as well as I do that it's synonymous with "worse") is fine, but it's not the same as saying what the Nazis did was worse than other genocides ("on a different level", what the fuck ever). The latter is honestly offensive IMO, as it downplays the tragedy of the lives lost in other genocides.

"I don't agree. History show us very compassionate people who are able to kill hundreds due to religious and/or ideological conviction, not to mention plain old fear. Also, I think that dehumanising the people responsible of these crimes (unless they are, in fact, psychopaths) is making them less guilty. Maybe I don't understand "being human" as you do? I don't think it's 100% good thing: I see people as being a mix of goodness and evil and mediocrity."

No, humans aren't all good, and I never said that, but to actually take another's life is crossing a line unlike just about any other crime a person can commit. To be able to do it even once and not be wracked with guilt over it after the fact is to kill a bit of your own humanity. To be able to kill mass numbers of people, be it directly or indirectly or both, and not only not feel guilty, but to justify it? It's inhuman. It doesn't matter why it's done. There's a reason why so many religions and other schools of moral thought regard murder as the greatest sin or crime. Taking another's life is a horrid thing to do, and anyone being desensitized to it enough to have hundreds, thousands, millions, etc of people put to death is really fucking scary. It doesn't matter if the reason behind it is science or blood purity or religion or whatever else. Honestly, I think it's scariest when the driving force is religion, myself.

Just. To actually believe what the Nazis did was worse is extremely fucked up. Anything in which so many lives are lost is a horrible tragedy, and comparing them to decide which is "worse" is fucking disgusting.

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